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A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 6:38:53 AM

Aswad

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As per Chi's suggestion, here's "a thread on moderation in Off Topic".

Anyone still care enough to even start that conversation?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

Post #: 1

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 7:57:52 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

25 threads were locked. 9 came from the same individual poster. To steal a line from one of my all time favorite movies (please forgive any errors in quoting from memory);

What we got here is, failure to communicate. Some men, you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it.

I'd prefer to see an issue as large as gun control discussed from many angles. I'd prefer it not be discussed with hit and run rock throwing, and in such chaos that any hope of continuity is destroyed. We are where we are.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 2

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:15:40 AM

Aswad

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No errors there, I think, TheHeretic.

I agree that many angles have to be covered in such a multifaceted debate.

Closing down 25 threads that went at it from different angles to create a single thread with no defined angle (and thus also no defined idea of what actually constitutes going off topic, something for which posts and threads are frequently pulled) and, from what I can see in nine pages of it, nothing resembling actual debate, is an example of the sort of moderation policies I think will soon be the death of CM as a forum. I certainly don't feel that contributing to the new thread is an investment there could be any return on, for me.

On the Zimmerman issue, from what I could tell, some of the threads being merged together were reasonable to merge, though I guess a few of them did go at more general topics in a manner that covered more angles; still, it seemed like a tolerable choice, even if it made it uninteresting to participate.

Along with the number of threads and posts being pulled, this just continues the ongoing trend of making constructive posting a costly affair with no payoff, while imposing no cost on destructive posting whatsoever. The fact that this leaves most of the threads on the front page locked is just underscoring the point that we're trying to keep a ghost town going, in the hope that it'll come back to life. Since some have suggested that the mods would prefer to close down P&R altogether, I suspect it's a futile effort, but it has seemed an effort worth making until this year.

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets locked before it's run its course, either, as has happened with many threads on moderation here.

And, quite frankly, I'm finding it hard to give a shit about CM anymore, but I try because this place used to be great.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 3

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:20:00 AM

tj444

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there was an amazing number of threads related to the subject.. which sorta obliterated all the other threads on other topics.. I expect it was darn hard for the mods to keep up with.. imo it was mostly done to make their job easier... really,.. its not my site so they can do whatever they want.. and when the shite is flying, i prefer to be watching from the bleachers eatin' my popcorn.. its safer there..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 4

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:26:08 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

And, quite frankly, I'm finding it hard to give a shit about CM anymore, but I try because this place used to be great.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I think it may be helpful Aswad, when you have the time, if you could write about what changes you personally think need to be made to get it back to being great and if that entails a description of how 'it' jumped the tracks, so be it.

Staying in the problem never solves anything, so what actions do people think need to be taken to move us to a workable solution.

aJ
ever the optimist

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(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 5

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:29:21 AM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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Of course they can do whatever they want, tj444.

Doesn't mean everything they do is constructive.

If the point was to make it easier to shut down CM, they did great.

If the point was to make it easier to maintain a good community, they did abysmally, and characteristically of the last few months.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/22/2012 9:01:17 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 6

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:31:44 AM

LaTigresse

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I agree with Aswad.

Most days, a mind numbing game of Mahjong is more stimulating to my brain than the Collarme forums.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 7

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:35:22 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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What I've always enjoyed about the political discussion here is the diversity of thought that gets represented. What brings us to this site has nothing to do with our political leanings and preferences. It's a good mix, even with the reliable percentage of douchebags.

Yes, I have been known to get a little snippy when posters from outside the US jump right in as ubervocal cheerleaders on purely domestic US issues, but when we can elevate to the philosophical views behind that, such perspectives are wonderful to have.

It's their house. I just hang out here. If I don't like it, I'll leave. Hell, once the wife and I start having the same days off, and a work schedule that lines up better, I'll be around a lot less, even if I do still like the atmosphere.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 8

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:50:50 AM

tj444

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I find that its other posters who snipe & personally attack (& yet avoid moderation) that get me to say "wtf, I'm outta here", not the mods..

lets face it,.. two posters started most of those threads, sure they were upset & shows in the threads they created, but it was getting out of hand.. you can only rant/say the same thing over and over so many times.. and that can be a big turn off too (to me at least)..
jmo of course..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 9

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 8:59:26 AM

mnottertail

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Well, I dunno, I am usually sort of always seemingly off topic, I like threads to go where they go, but I can see how that sort of thing can be used to sabotage threads as well.

I guess for those that mordantly sabotage in that respect there is some degree of herding threads on topic. Well, there are many aspects of for and for not gun control. If people wanted to, they could make 15 pages or more on the topic and ranting (we know someone who's entire life is to ranting the tinfoilious most (all the same in the end crap down there), then something happens and other topics and threads get buried way down in the middle of all the other crap, so it looks like a one trick pony.

So, dunno. I would hate to see it so amorphous and miasmatic as fet, but control, not control, what do you do, where is the line?

It aint like anyone is going to change anyones mind on any issue, but other places than politics its gonna be findoms are prostitutes and fatgirls are prostitutes and fakes are prostitutes and scammers are prostitutes........I don't know how you shitcan all the dumbass stuff without encroaching a little on the less than dumbass stuff.....

Meh, nothing to say, I guess, and lotsa words to say it in.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 10

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:03:51 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I find that its other posters who snipe & personally attack (& yet avoid moderation) that get me to say "wtf, I'm outta here", not the mods..

QFT, yet they roll along, casually and comfortably (I'd say happily, except it is completely clear that these are not people with any interest in being happy), doing all they are competent to do, and never actually drawing a sanction. That is a moderation problem.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 11

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:17:01 AM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I find that its other posters who snipe & personally attack (& yet avoid moderation) that get me to say "wtf, I'm outta here", not the mods..

QFT, yet they roll along, casually and comfortably (I'd say happily, except it is completely clear that these are not people with any interest in being happy), doing all they are competent to do, and never actually drawing a sanction. That is a moderation problem.

ok, true enough & I dont agree they should just be able to keep rolling along, and its a peeve of mine.. but that is not a thread problem.. I really didnt see much difference in many of the threads started, sight variations of the same thing is to me basically the same thing.. I would look at the new thread, see who posted it and say to myself... "didnt he just say that in the last thread he just started?"

But its done now, so.. and its Christmas! no one is gonna be here anyway..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 12

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:26:17 AM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Most days, a mind numbing game of Mahjong is more stimulating to my brain than the Collarme forums.

Same here, and it didn't use to be that way.

Since angelicaJ mentioned it, my take on the most important, most pressing change is this:

Asshats on moderation as the preferred means of ending asshattery, not pulling and locking threads. If it's not bad enough to put folks on moderation, it's not bad enough to collectively punish everyone over it. The cost to an asshat of making a driveby violation is nothing. The cost to me of writing a post in a thread where an asshat made a driveby is substantial. In short, I'm more severely punished for the actions of others than those doing those actions are, and it makes me stop myself from posting a lot of the time, now.

My dear has already left CollarMe, on account of the pulls, lockdowns and mergers.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 13

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:30:42 AM

VideoAdminTheta

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Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline

Good Day,

Please see my post on the 'All things gun' thread.

Thank you

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 14

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:38:48 AM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminTheta

Please see my post on the 'All things gun' thread.

While I didn't plan to revisit that thread, I had a look at the post you made.

I saw nothing of relevance to this thread in that post.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to VideoAdminTheta)

Post #: 15

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 9:40:07 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

While I appreciate your effort Aswad, I think it's highly unlikely that My personal comments/questions regarding moderation would be fruitful. While I understand that the suggestion came because of many threads suddenly being locked in Pol & R to condense them into one subject, *** there are also issues in other sections. A few of the posters mentioned curiosity about threads going poof on one of the Polls and Random Snippets section yesterday. One of those threads came back. One (that HillWilliam mentioned) from the Ask A Master section still hasn't returned. I still don't understand why a thread by Resident Sadist was pulled from the General Discussion board recently or why this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_4309589/tm.htm was closed and never reopened.

Unfortunately, these are questions that the "not going to explain" response is what is to be expected. I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again. If an original post is within ToS and forum guidelines and the majority of responses are the same, I don't see why some topics are being closed and/or removed.

I do wish you luck in the endeavor of getting the dialogue going.

*** Personal opinion on that was that it wasn't necessary. The shootings in CT and related topics have generated the majority of the traffic on the boards in the last week. The other sections are very slow in comparison.

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(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 16

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 10:20:47 AM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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Thanks, LadyPact.

I appreciate your comments and opinions, whether or not they're likely to be fruitful.

Personally, I think "condensing" is anything but descriptive of what was done this time; more like they found a topic that had a lot of people engaged, and shut it down in perhaps the most effective manner possible, forcing it into that narrow zone where no answers can be found and no meaningful dialogue had, rather than the various tangential issues from which one can gainfully approach the topic (and which are themselves seperate topics in a meaningful way).

But, to be clear, the merger is just one in a long line of moderation choices I've seen lately that have left me shaking my head.

As you may recall from another thread, I've long advocated posting with an eye to the health of the communal waterhole. I've upheld that policy for five years for myself, to the best of my ability. Early december this year, I ceased to hold myself to that policy, and instituted a policy of not investing myself significantly into CM in any way instead, in direct response to current policy and the reduced enjoyment of reading and posting here that has been the consequence of those policies. If moderators are bent on letting the place rot, any effort to the contrary is wasted, and it's better to be disciplined about not wasting time and energy on CM (ironically, I've had the former policy so long that it actually takes discipline not to invest in this place).

I don't see CM existing in 2015, at this rate.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 17

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 10:23:00 AM

VideoAdminTheta

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Thank you LadyPact, for answering VideoAdminChi's question about the threads in question from Admits.

The one thread you link to was my fault as you know, but what you didn't know was that I was sick with a flu bug and when I was playing catch up, I lost that one. It has been cleaned and returned. I am very sorry for the inconvenience.

I will see what I can find elsewhere.

Theta

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 18

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 10:34:16 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Asshats on moderation as the preferred means of ending asshattery, not pulling and locking threads. If it's not bad enough to put folks on moderation, it's not bad enough to collectively punish everyone over it. The cost to an asshat of making a driveby violation is nothing. The cost to me of writing a post in a thread where an asshat made a driveby is substantial. In short, I'm more severely punished for the actions of others than those doing those actions are, and it makes me stop myself from posting a lot of the time, now.

Agree. It is so damned frustrating to be engaged in a topic only to have the thread locked. The mods should moderate the offenders and not everyone who contributed to the thread. This is my number one peeve also. They have this three warnings policy. It makes little sense to warn everyone and allow the thread buster to continue to wreck destruction of the discourse, because the innocent are unable to intervene. If a warning is ignored and the deed repeated that poster should be blocked and given a time out. A better policy, I think.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/22/2012 10:41:35 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 19

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 10:37:17 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Personally, I think "condensing" is anything but descriptive of what was done this time; more like they found a topic that had a lot of people engaged, and shut it down in perhaps the most effective manner possible, forcing it into that narrow zone where no answers can be found and no meaningful dialogue had, rather than the various tangential issues from which one can gainfully approach the topic (and which are themselves seperate topics in a meaningful way).

QFT. A most excellent point. For example, why was Rich's thread on the mental health issue locked? http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/tm.htm

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/22/2012 10:43:10 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 20

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