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RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 4:41:21 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

Regarding Moderation.

Up to 12 months ago, things went nicely. Something changed last December. Since then, we've had periods of shit and we've had periods of OK. The problem is that a lot of folks are posting with that little "yellow letter fear" in the back of their heads instead of saying what they think.
Sometimes, it gets better for a month or 2 but always comes back.
Seriously folks. This isnt day care.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 41

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 4:48:12 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't believe it will be the end of CM and I'm sure the powers that be are just trying their best to give us the best experience on the site.

"Damn, I wish there were some place I could talk to the cool people on here." doesn't strike me as the best experience.

quote:

In the end i think things will work out just fine.

I don't share your optimism, but as usual would love to be proven wrong.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 42

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 4:52:52 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

The problem is that a lot of folks are posting with that little "yellow letter fear" in the back of their heads instead of saying what they think.

For me, it's more that "nah, nevermind, it'll just get pulled for no reason." thing that's the problematic feeling, though I agree with the time frame you mention.

Wasn't much for saying what I think to begin with, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 43

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 5:07:52 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

As per Chi's suggestion, here's "a thread on moderation in Off Topic".

Anyone still care enough to even start that conversation?

Moderation is about taking the excess and streamlining. The goal is, or ought to be, the removal of extreme divergence to allow for the general advancement of the subject.

If we moderate individuals intelligently - perhaps a warning and then follow-up: "This comment is not on topic; further comments in this vein on this thread will result in [x]" - then the flow of the discussion can stay in place without allegations of favouritism or individual alienation.

Pulling a thread or killing it is appropriate for TOS violations, but not conversations. It's the difference between moving a drunk from the bar, and closing the bar to prevent drunkenness.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 44

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 5:20:37 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Shows how much I don't pay attention to this place. I didn't even notice any pulled threads or responses. So I guess for me, it just isn't all that important how the mods operate.

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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 45

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 5:22:22 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Shows how much I don't pay attention to this place. I didn't even notice any pulled threads or responses. So I guess for me, it just isn't all that important how the mods operate.

Nah. You probably just misplaced your glasses.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 46

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 5:23:08 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Wait! I bought another set AND found the other set.

No more lost glasses.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 47

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 6:39:24 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

If we moderate individuals intelligently - perhaps a warning and then follow-up: "This comment is not on topic; further comments in this vein on this thread will result in [x]" - then the flow of the discussion can stay in place without allegations of favouritism or individual alienation.

That used to be a common approach. If things got too far off track while the original topic was still being discussed, there would be a warning to stick to the topic at hand and the posters would split the sidetracks into a new thread. More of a reminder not to disturb the flow of the conversation than anything else, really. As kdsub mentions, we've seen improvements on permitting thread drifts (thank you for listening to that one, VAA).

quote:

Pulling a thread or killing it is appropriate for TOS violations, but not conversations. It's the difference between moving a drunk from the bar, and closing the bar to prevent drunkenness.

Actually, no, pulling or killing a thread because of something like namecalling in the thread is absolutely inappropriate, because that has the effect of serving as collective punishment and disporportionally hitting those of us that care, as well as enabling thread assassinations (similarly to the FB strategy of mass reporting to do account assassinations), plus it has no deterrent effect on the posters that did the violating in the first place (and who frequently don't give a shit).

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 48

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 6:45:10 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I wish there were some place I could talk to the cool people on here

Some people think I am very cool...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 49

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 6:48:41 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Some people think I am very cool...

I enjoy our exchanges, kdsub.

I'll admit you don't make my top ten, but I do enjoy debating with you.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 50

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 6:56:32 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I guess I should be insulted... but I am a forgiving man...lol

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 51

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 7:01:05 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

I don't think I make Aswad's top ten either, but the numbers get lost in the enjoyment of the exchange anyhow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

Pulling a thread or killing it is appropriate for TOS violations, but not conversations. It's the difference between moving a drunk from the bar, and closing the bar to prevent drunkenness.

Actually, no, pulling or killing a thread because of something like namecalling in the thread is absolutely inappropriate, because that has the effect of serving as collective punishment and disporportionally hitting those of us that care, as well as enabling thread assassinations (similarly to the FB strategy of mass reporting to do account assassinations), plus it has no deterrent effect on the posters that did the violating in the first place (and who frequently don't give a shit).

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I knew I should have clarified - I meant on the part of the OP (in other words, where the thread itself violated TOS). If one person violates TOS in the middle of a good thread, they're just being clueless or malicious.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 52

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/22/2012 7:47:30 PM

LizDeluxe

Posts: 687
Joined: 10/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
On the Zimmerman issue, from what I could tell, some of the threads being merged together were reasonable to merge, though I guess a few of them did go at more general topics in a manner that covered more angles; still, it seemed like a tolerable choice, even if it made it uninteresting to participate.

The Zimmerman threads were locked and consolidated for largely the same reason as the gun control threads. A large number of threads flooded the forum in a very short time by one of two posters. That and the fact that they started to get out of hand. It's a tough topic. It's bad enough that it is such a polarizing debate but then you have the grand standers and their "blood on your hands" rhetoric. I can't really fault the mods for this type of action although it is unfortunate. Most P&R type forums throughout the interwebs are cesspools. The one here is no different but I'm thankful that it exists to confine those discussions to their own area.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 53

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 10:17:52 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

If we moderate individuals intelligently - perhaps a warning and then follow-up: "This comment is not on topic; further comments in this vein on this thread will result in [x]" - then the flow of the discussion can stay in place without allegations of favouritism or individual alienation.

A few months ago or perhaps last summer, there was an enormous backlash against moderating for off topic and since then I have been much more lenient. Speaking for myself and not the site, I would prefer that people stay on topic, and am happy to reopen this discussion.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 54

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 10:38:19 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

For example, why was Rich's thread on the mental health issue locked? http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/tm.htm

On that thread, there were a few posts about gun control that have been pulled for TOS violations. I have pulled another post about gun control and unlocked the thread.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 55

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 10:40:03 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

I'm pretty sure it was a few months ago, Chi.

I personally don't perceive a major problem with the handling of threads straying off topic at the moment.

My main gripe is with the consistent preference for collective punishment over individual punishment, and the subjective experience of nonsensical moderation.

Now, I'll admit you're not currently my favorite moderator, so I won't make any comment on whether or not you have a part in this, or what that part might be if so, in recognition of the fact that my feelings about you are poorly justified and likely to color my perceptions. I did not start this thread out of any grudge, and I don't intend to bring any into it. I just want to discuss some general policy issues that I consider to be problematic, outlined above, though obviously the topic lends itself to others raising different issues related to the moderation.

Also, to be perfectly clear, I'm in no way holding against you the thread merger that VAA wanted, and it wasn't even intended to be the main focus on my part. Further, having singlehandedly moderated a board with a similar number of active posters for a time, albeit with better software, I know the amount of work involved, done on a volunteer basis as a labor of love for which I commend you all.

This is my attempt at being constructive about how I feel about the developments on CM, another, lesser labor of love, born out of what this place used to be and what it used to mean to many posters, myself included. We all, I think, have common ground in wanting to see the board grow and thrive again. The last thread on the subject did result in the improvements you've mentioned, and perhaps this one can result in further improvements.

Merry Christmas, by the way, in case you're taking that day off.

I wish you well as always.

— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

Post #: 56

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 10:47:51 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminChi

On that thread, there were a few posts about gun control that have been pulled for TOS violations. I have pulled another post about gun control and unlocked the thread.

Any chance you could forward those posts to me?

I can sanitize them, feed them back to you for approval, and then post a small selection of them here in the interests of broadening the debate and adding some concrete substance to discuss on the subject of what is currently handled how and whether something could be done to improve on the subjective experience of moderation here.

I've no idea if they're relevant, but I'm offering to do what I can if they might be.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

Post #: 57

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 11:00:36 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

My main gripe is with the consistent preference for collective punishment over individual punishment

This is an excellent point which I am bringing to VAA's attention.

I shall address a number of your other points off line later.

quote:

This is my attempt at being constructive about how I feel about the developments on CM, another, lesser labor of love, born out of what this place used to be and what it used to mean to many posters, myself included. We all, I think, have common ground in wanting to see the board grow and thrive again. The last thread on the subject did result in the improvements you've mentioned, and perhaps this one can result in further improvements.

Merry Christmas, by the way, in case you're taking that day off.

I wish you well as always.

— Aswad.

Appreciated, thank you!

< Message edited by VideoAdminChi -- 12/23/2012 12:17:12 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 58

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 11:15:39 AM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminChi

quote:

If we moderate individuals intelligently - perhaps a warning and then follow-up: "This comment is not on topic; further comments in this vein on this thread will result in [x]" - then the flow of the discussion can stay in place without allegations of favouritism or individual alienation.

A few months ago or perhaps last summer, there was an enormous backlash against moderating for off topic and since then I have been much more lenient. Speaking for myself and not the site, I would prefer that people stay on topic, and am happy to reopen this discussion.

I think I recall that. Were people being warned, then pulled, or just pulled? It does make a difference, for the poster and the other readers, to know they have the luxury of a warning instead of just getting yanked. It would be educational, too, as people would see the warning and can learn from it. (Also removes that "but I didn't know!!!" factor.) I understand from a logistics standpoint that it would be more work for the moderation staff, and you'd have to consider that as well.

Now that I think of it, there's the matter of hijacking versus common thread drift. My exchange with littlewonder on this very thread is a good example; we drifted from the topic but didn't detract, and the comment had an entendre that played well with the topic in general. If two peeps went off on a flame war then that's another story, of course. What are your thoughts on it? I ask because I'm curious about getting feedback from the viewpoint of someone who has to do the actual moderating. If it's not appropriate to reply here, maybe you could cmail me on the other side?

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

Post #: 59

RE: A thread on moderation - 12/23/2012 12:23:04 PM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

Were people being warned, then pulled, or just pulled? It does make a difference, for the poster and the other readers, to know they have the luxury of a warning instead of just getting yanked. It would be educational, too, as people would see the warning and can learn from it. (Also removes that "but I didn't know!!!" factor.)

There's a current thread on which three mod warnings were given yet people continue to post off topic. Mods often give warnings on threads. However, receiving one gold letter for one issue is not a big deal.

quote:

Now that I think of it, there's the matter of hijacking versus common thread drift.

AFAIK, thread drift has always been ok conceptually, but it's possible (I have no concrete examples of this) that what one person sees as normal drift another views as a hijack.

< Message edited by VideoAdminChi -- 12/23/2012 12:28:57 PM >

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 60

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