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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 4:38:12 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don’t believe fame is the right word… I would say in their warped minds it is revenge.

Butch

In a lot of cases.
In others, I'm sure the morbid cult around Charles Manson and Varg Vikernes hasn't escaped their attention.

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Post #: 21

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 5:26:26 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Orion, you are close to where I am coming from.

I can't remember where I was studying years ago about a certain angle of motivation about suicide. While not all people who take their own lives have it as a part of their reasoning, some do have the process of making a statement to those left behind. Kind of a "look at what you have done" thought process. The "I'm going to make you feel sorry that I went to these lengths" deal.

The grander the incident, the bigger the effect. If someone feels insignificant in their suffering, are they reaching for significance to society?

I expect that is one element.

From my observation these people seem to be hurting beyond their ability to cope with no hope. Even well studied people often do not know or grasp the core causes of their frustration and their solutions usually only go as far as their knowledge base.

Much those who think kicking the bum out will actually make anything change for the better.

After a lifetime of no results because they have and continue to direct their frustrations at the wrong targets they go over the top.

Hopelessness and despair, the fruits of a democratic society where nearly everything in your life is controlled by strangers.

They think they will make a difference with their choice of solution within their tunnel vision scope of knowledge and invariably hurt the innocents when the true sources are unscathed.

The erosion and destruction of the sanctity of the family unit and natural rights of the living is a good place to start.

an impotent state forcing the same upon society.

We traded our souls for commercial convenience.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/23/2013 5:29:45 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 6:17:42 AM

Powergamz1

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The epidemic of suicides among males in this age group is one thing. The subset of suicides that choose to go out this way are different in a specifically self selecting manner. It is a valid question as to what pushes that extra button in their cases.

Your premise (that some of those who have decided to permanently escape from their lives want to make a statement, or maximize the impact of their departure by offending society as much as possible) fits the available facts.

And the observed effect of media oversensationalism and violence in general is well researched.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Orion, you are close to where I am coming from.

I can't remember where I was studying years ago about a certain angle of motivation about suicide. While not all people who take their own lives have it as a part of their reasoning, some do have the process of making a statement to those left behind. Kind of a "look at what you have done" thought process. The "I'm going to make you feel sorry that I went to these lengths" deal.

The grander the incident, the bigger the effect. If someone feels insignificant in their suffering, are they reaching for significance to society?

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Post #: 23

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 6:45:34 AM

LizDeluxe

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While I do feel that the over the top media coverage of these events might influence and even inspire others who have the same disposition to do this I question whether notoriety is a main driving factor. I think if we could really drill down into what drives these people we would find their motivations were more vengeful or getting even for some strange or even imagined slight they endured somewhere in life.

Having said that, I saw an interview with a survivor of a mass shooting a little while after the theater shooting in Aurora. He lamented all of the attention that the shooter gets and said that when these things occur a year later everyone could remember the shooter's name and image but virtually nobody could recall the names and faces of the people he killed. He's absolutely right... so you maybe you are on to something.

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Post #: 24

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 9:11:00 AM

kdsub

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Not even close to exclusive here in my area... we had a mother shoot her two children 8 and 10 then shoot herself.

Another mother shot her three children 8 6 and 3 then herself

Another killed her children 4 and 5 then was captured trying to flee the scene.

Another mother took a 12 gauge shotgun to her two children.

All within 100 miles of my home in the last two years.

There were even more in the search …try a google search in your area and see what comes up.

Butch

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Post #: 25

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 9:20:01 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

While I do feel that the over the top media coverage of these events might influence and even inspire others who have the same disposition to do this I question whether notoriety is a main driving factor. I think if we could really drill down into what drives these people we would find their motivations were more vengeful or getting even for some strange or even imagined slight they endured somewhere in life.

Not even close to the only factor, but if we can agree that murdering a large number of strangers is an attention seeking act, then it's in there somewhere, isn't it? hell, it's a way that even fuckwits who can't sing badly enough to get on The X Factor can use to get their names in the papers. There's plenty who think that's worth dying for, never mind a few people they don't know themselves...

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 26

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 10:57:50 AM

LizDeluxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Not even close to the only factor, but if we can agree that murdering a large number of strangers is an attention seeking act, then it's in there somewhere, isn't it?

Yes, it's in there somewhere. The OP asked how far up in importance do you think the killers are prioritizing notoriety. I think it's in the mix somewhere but honestly I feel it's probably more of a by product than a main motivation. I think this is even more likely in cases where the shooter commits suicide because then he has denied himself the ability to enjoy his new found notoriety. I think these people are batshit crazy and we may never know exactly what drives them. To get their 15 minutes of fame? I'm unconvinced.

_____________________________

While is there no liberal talk radio? There are at least five conservative talk radio shows available over the air every day in the radio market I live in. Why does the liberal message fail to attract listeners?

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 27

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 12:09:22 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe
I think this is even more likely in cases where the shooter commits suicide because then he has denied himself the ability to enjoy his new found notoriety. I think these people are batshit crazy and we may never know exactly what drives them. To get their 15 minutes of fame? I'm unconvinced.

If they're going anyway, why not?
Just look at the dead junkie out of Nirvana: would anybody still give a toss about him or his band if he hadn't used buckshot to drain his sinuses? There are plenty of idiots who'd rather die a "legend" than live in obscurity, and they aren't all mass murderers.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LizDeluxe)

Post #: 28

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 3:01:03 PM

Nosathro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

I find it interesting that the over the top murder suicides are almost exclusively done by men. I know that men aren't the only mentally damaged people in the world...................

There was a study on suicides by gender, some of the finding were interesting, women attempt suicide more then men but men are more succussful at it. This is what many believe that men attempt suicide using more violent means, like guns. It would also in part support the "Suicide by Police" theory.

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 29

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 3:06:43 PM

Nosathro

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There was survey done, on people who murdered and their victiums...more people knew who John Wilkes Booth was than Abraham Lincoln...do figure.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 30

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 7:09:35 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Mike, it may very well be your honest opinion, but LP brings up a good point and wants to discuss that point. Your honest opinion is 1) Rude 2) Hijacking 3) Trying to squelch discussion other than what you see as valid. Best form here would be apologize and move on with the topic or not participate.

To the OP, I believe some of it may be wanting to do things in a "large" way but I don't think it is for fame always. Not sure what to call it, but it seems like a version of making a post that the entire world will see (if that makes sense).

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Motivation is besides the point.....the ease with which one of these idiots arms himself in this country is really the only discussion worth having ,everything else is nothing but a bogus distraction and deflection.

While I appreciate you taking the time to post, this particular thread is about motivation. Please do not say the topic of the thread is besides the point.

Thank you.

Sorry LP,but that happens to be my honest opinion.
And since this is a message board and you posed the question nothing says I can't drop in and offer my take on the subject.....which I honestly believe amounts to nothing more than the mental masturbation that gun enthusiasts would like to offer up as red meat rather than have an honest(intellectually speaking) discussion.

There I have had my say......now absent you once more telling me how I don't belong here...I probably won't be back(this seems to be a bit of a formula ,eh,I drop in,have my say ...fully intending to ignore it from that point on.....than you tell me I should stay away ....next thing you know we are arguing ....why don't we skip it this time )

Sorry Orion,I don't see where an apology is called for,as a matter of fact what I see is a deliberate attempt to deflect from a pro gun rights poster.
What I will do is ignore,from here on out,the thread,and allow all who wish to participate in it have at it.
Above and beyond that I'm not willing to do.....as I see it the OP asked a question and ,in my first post,I answered it...Than the reply to my post open a whole nother door.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

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Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 31

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:04:03 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Mike, it may very well be your honest opinion, but LP brings up a good point and wants to discuss that point. Your honest opinion is 1) Rude 2) Hijacking 3) Trying to squelch discussion other than what you see as valid. Best form here would be apologize and move on with the topic or not participate.

Orion,

IMO, Mike's point is valid and I don't believe you have the right to demarcate the boundaries of this discussion. You are not a moderator on this thread.

I'm not accusing LP of consciously having done so here, but it *is* a standard, and very frequently-employed, strategy to avert discussion of any radical (but nonetheless necessary) solution by delimiting a given debate and setting the boundaries of it in an artificially narrow way. It's been a time-honoured strategy throughout the ages. There are more examples in history than anyone would have the time to list.

Ironically, in this case, far from Mike having 'squelched discussion' - it's actually you who have helped to do so. I honestly don't think that the standard procedure after yet another mass-shooting in America - of collective lamenting, followed by cod-psychological-hypothesising, followed by - well, nothing much at all, until the next-mass shooting - is going to cut it anymore.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/23/2013 8:05:36 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:14:22 PM

slvemike4u

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Thank you Peon.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 33

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:21:44 PM

jlf1961

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May I point out that lifetime movie channel plays a lot of "Fact Based" docudramas that actually bring attention to killers.

Discovery ID shows programs dealing with serial killers, mass murderers and other killers and that brings fame to the men and women who committed the crimes.

There are 100 movies and made for tv movies dealing with all types of killers.

So, yeah, I think that the fame from being such a person is possibly a bid draw.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Post #: 34

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:34:53 PM

slvemike4u

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Okay,so let us collectively grant that "fame" plays a part is the motivation of all of these disparate individuals.

We all buy that,right ?.....we than move on in the discussion and ask the next logical question in this discussion.
"Why,oh fucking why,do we ,as a society,allow these fame seeking idiots to so easily arm themselves ? "
and that inevitably leads us to a discussion about guns......which is of course the only discussion worth having.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 35

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:55:34 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not even close to exclusive here in my area... we had a mother shoot her two children 8 and 10 then shoot herself.

Another mother shot her three children 8 6 and 3 then herself

Another killed her children 4 and 5 then was captured trying to flee the scene.

Another mother took a 12 gauge shotgun to her two children.

All within 100 miles of my home in the last two years.

There were even more in the search …try a google search in your area and see what comes up.

Butch

I don't understand how anyone can say these people are not driven by compulsive forces within their own brains/minds. They may be acting rationally within their own frames of reference but those frames of reference are badly distorted. The Aurora Theatre killer was under psychiatric care. Others as well. To consider that these folks are seeking fame is to assign them a more normative motivation and denies the possiblity that they suffered from some sort of mental illness. I don't think we should go down that path. Seeking fame or seeking revenge in so dramatic and damaging a fashion is far beyond the normative human experience. It is not who we are. Something dark goes there.

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Post #: 36

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 8:59:12 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

May I point out that lifetime movie channel plays a lot of "Fact Based" docudramas that actually bring attention to killers.

Discovery ID shows programs dealing with serial killers, mass murderers and other killers and that brings fame to the men and women who committed the crimes.

There are 100 movies and made for tv movies dealing with all types of killers.

So, yeah, I think that the fame from being such a person is possibly a bid draw.

Well, JLF, having got off my my chest a variant of what is probably my crucial point in any given political discussion, any time and anywhere - yes, I agree.

I shall do some emoting here of my own. I remember a short phase, in my late teens, when I began to suffer horrible depression. I got angry and wanted to 'hit back' - though I had no clear idea about who I wanted to hit back, nor why. I just came over all angry, that's all. Standard teen boy personal-black-cloud, maybe, but taken a few degrees further. A loud motorbike, an outrageous hairstyle . . . the usual things for moody kids who wanted to be noticed - they weren't enough for me. But, fortunately for the world at large, I was the sort who was more inclined to turn hate inward than outward. So, I didn't hit anybody - I started seeing a therapist instead.

I don't think my story is all that unusual. Plenty of kids get the gloomy grouches - they grow out of it eventually. I'd say (to all in general): don't look for the *entirely abnormal* in this Connecticut kid's psychology. I don't think the truth is going to be that comforting. Instead, I'd say, look for the fairly normal, but taken a few - though obviously crucial - steps further.

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Post #: 37

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 9:06:41 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I don't think my story is all that unusual. Plenty of kids get the gloomy grouches - they grow out of it eventually. I'd say (to all in general): don't look for the *entirely abnormal* in this Connecticut kid's psychology. I don't think the truth is going to be that comforting. Instead, I'd say, look for the fairly normal, but taken a few - though obviously crucial - steps further

But some do not. It is from this subset that the spree killers arise. Should we not try to seek out the reason for that? Maybe they're usual childhood gloomy grouchiness is instead a symptom of some very tragic human malady that should not be ignored and passed off as just "normal" growing phases.

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Post #: 38

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 9:08:36 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

May I point out that lifetime movie channel plays a lot of "Fact Based" docudramas that actually bring attention to killers.

Discovery ID shows programs dealing with serial killers, mass murderers and other killers and that brings fame to the men and women who committed the crimes.

There are 100 movies and made for tv movies dealing with all types of killers.

So, yeah, I think that the fame from being such a person is possibly a bid draw.

There are studies to support this. Here is one:
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-hew-kidviolence2002,0,2251451.story

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 39

RE: Grasping for fame - 1/23/2013 9:23:18 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But some do not. It is from this subset that the spree killers arise. Should we not try to seek out the reason for that?

I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons is the availability of a means actually to be a spree killer rather than just fantasise about it, as I did. For instance, the availability of guns.

Damnit, there's that elephant in the room again, trumpeting so loud now it's perforating our eardrums.

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Post #: 40

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