quote:

Seeking fame or seeking revenge

Something dark goes there

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But some do not. It is from this subset that the spree killers arise. Should we not try to seek out the reason for that?

I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons is the availability of a means actually to be a spree killer rather than just fantasise about it, as I did. For instance, the availability of guns.

Damnit, there's that elephant in the room again, trumpeting so loud now it's perforating our eardrums.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay,so let us collectively grant that "fame" plays a part is the motivation of all of these disparate individuals.

We all buy that,right ?.....we than move on in the discussion and ask the next logical question in this discussion.
"Why,oh fucking why,do we ,as a society,allow these fame seeking idiots to so easily arm themselves ? "
and that inevitably leads us to a discussion about guns......which is of course the only discussion worth having.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay,so let us collectively grant that "fame" plays a part is the motivation of all of these disparate individuals.

We all buy that,right ?.....we than move on in the discussion and ask the next logical question in this discussion.
"Why,oh fucking why,do we ,as a society,allow these fame seeking idiots to so easily arm themselves ? "
and that inevitably leads us to a discussion about guns......which is of course the only discussion worth having.

Mike, I'm not trying to squash you. Where I'm going with this train of thought is a possible motivation of "why". We've got a number of threads on "how". It's just that I don't think "HOW" is all there is to it.

If you would like, I will give you My word that I will discuss with you on another thread to your heart's content our difference of opinion regarding hunting and gun ownership. That's honestly not what this thread is about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright, the fact that under the current law, there is no way to stop a mentally unstable, untreated person from obtaining firearms.

That has been one of the things I have been screaming about since this debate started.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer




It's not just about the availability of firearms, JLF. This goes to a point that I've made a few times on these forums recently. It's distinctly psychological, too. It's based on the idea that the old maxim, 'where there's a will, there's a way', has it *the wrong way around*. The truth is that, in most practical situations, 'where there's a way, there's a will'. In other words, what moves a fantasy into the realms of the possible, and then into plan-of-action - is the means to achieve it. Ends do not dictate means, all the time. Someone who has killed would not *necessarily* have had that desire to start with, then gone out and found the weapon to do it. The reverse may just as easily have been the case. It could have been that he found the weapon (or the means of getting it), and this fuelled fantasy, then the real-life desire, then the plan, then the action - rather than vice versa.

I've said before: I do building, now and then. My friend never wanted a window in her bathroom. Then I discovered angle grinders and learned how they could cut easily through walls. On hearing this, my friend wanted a hole in her bathroom wall. Something that I'd never even thought about before, suddenly became a desire. The availability of 'the weapon' was the cause of that. No need to look in any other direction, psychologically-speaking, whatsoever.

You see the principle? The means shape the ends. Not necessarily vice versa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There are multiple threads explicitly on guns as the only factor. IIRC, there have been 2 threads attempting to point out that in the real world, things are more complex, and they've both been dragged down by the same posters insisting that they be allowed to derail the entire thread, and that no one else be allowed to offer up any form of critical analysis... knee jerk, or nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay,so let us collectively grant that "fame" plays a part is the motivation of all of these disparate individuals.

We all buy that,right ?.....we than move on in the discussion and ask the next logical question in this discussion.
"Why,oh fucking why,do we ,as a society,allow these fame seeking idiots to so easily arm themselves ? "
and that inevitably leads us to a discussion about guns......which is of course the only discussion worth having.

Mike, I'm not trying to squash you. Where I'm going with this train of thought is a possible motivation of "why". We've got a number of threads on "how". It's just that I don't think "HOW" is all there is to it.

If you would like, I will give you My word that I will discuss with you on another thread to your heart's content our difference of opinion regarding hunting and gun ownership. That's honestly not what this thread is about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
IMO, Mike's point is valid and I don't believe you have the right to demarcate the boundaries of this discussion. You are not a moderator on this thread.

I'm not accusing LP of consciously having done so here, but it *is* a standard, and very frequently-employed, strategy to avert discussion of any radical (but nonetheless necessary) solution by delimiting a given debate and setting the boundaries of it in an artificially narrow way. It's been a time-honoured strategy throughout the ages. There are more examples in history than anyone would have the time to list.

Ironically, in this case, far from Mike having 'squelched discussion' - it's actually you who have helped to do so. I honestly don't think that the standard procedure after yet another mass-shooting in America - of collective lamenting, followed by cod-psychological-hypothesising, followed by - well, nothing much at all, until the next-mass shooting - is going to cut it anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There are multiple threads explicitly on guns as the only factor. IIRC, there have been 2 threads attempting to point out that in the real world, things are more complex, and they've both been dragged down by the same posters insisting that they be allowed to derail the entire thread, and that no one else be allowed to offer up any form of critical analysis... knee jerk, or nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I understand what you are saying,I really and actually do.
But here's the rub,it is the same one it has always been......:
How can you start a thread about gun violence and ask that guns not be discussed ?
Answer that question...to my satisfaction,keeping in mind this is a message board,and I will fade away(something I have offered to do numerous times...but I keep getting addressed )

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Tell you what, when the next mass killing happens and the weapons used where multiple pistols with ten round mags, you tell me why the assault weapon ban and large cap mag ban worked, okay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I understand what you are saying,I really and actually do.
But here's the rub,it is the same one it has always been......:
How can you start a thread about gun violence and ask that guns not be discussed ?
Answer that question...to my satisfaction,keeping in mind this is a message board,and I will fade away(something I have offered to do numerous times...but I keep getting addressed )

LP asked how much importance did people feel that notoriety played in the motivation that these killers had to do these shootings. The thread was not about gun violence. Not until you came along, anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I understand what you are saying,I really and actually do.
But here's the rub,it is the same one it has always been......:
How can you start a thread about gun violence and ask that guns not be discussed ?
Answer that question...to my satisfaction,keeping in mind this is a message board,and I will fade away(something I have offered to do numerous times...but I keep getting addressed )

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Seeking fame or seeking revenge

Something dark goes there

Vince you are thinking too much in the above post... Of course it is insane to do what these women did...but that does not mean they are not doing it to get even with someone... even if only to take away something they love...But to do it for any reason is insane no doubt.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
By the way, Charles Whitman, found to have a brain tumor in his autopsy, had, according to some, sought help for the homicidal thoughts he was having and then the day he decided to kill his family and go up on the tower, he was able to purchase, I may be wrong, three high power rifles with scopes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But some do not. It is from this subset that the spree killers arise. Should we not try to seek out the reason for that?

I'd hazard a guess that one of the reasons is the availability of a means actually to be a spree killer rather than just fantasise about it, as I did. For instance, the availability of guns.

Damnit, there's that elephant in the room again, trumpeting so loud now it's perforating our eardrums.

Try as one might,one keeps coming back to that....doesn't one ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Seeking fame or seeking revenge

Something dark goes there

Vince you are thinking too much in the above post... Of course it is insane to do what these women did...but that does not mean they are not doing it to get even with someone... even if only to take away something they love...But to do it for any reason is insane no doubt.

Butch

Butch, some have reported they were commanded by God or heard other voices. In which case these are really poor tormented sick people. Assigning motives such as seeking revenge or fame is a trivial response to their illness. Assigning such common motives for any such demented spree killing trivialises the human condition and distracts from the core question of why these people are so fucked up. It layers on a coating of normative motives to bizarre and quite unusual behavior. Mentally healthy people may seek fame or revenge but they do not use such extreme methods I don't think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright, the fact that under the current law, there is no way to stop a mentally unstable, untreated person from obtaining firearms.

That has been one of the things I have been screaming about since this debate started.

All I have gotten in response is that forcing someone to get treatment is unconstitutional, or forcing the doctors to report such people is a violation of Doctor/Patent privilege.

Ban assault weapons for all the good it will do, even if a mentally unstable cant get a semi auto with large cap mags, he can get a number of guns with 10 round mags and do just as much damage.

Tell me what you will have accomplished?

By the way, Charles Whitman, found to have a brain tumor in his autopsy, had, according to some, sought help for the homicidal thoughts he was having and then the day he decided to kill his family and go up on the tower, he was able to purchase, I may be wrong, three high power rifles with scopes.