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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 7:41:02 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Mentally healthy people may seek fame or revenge but they do not use such extreme methods I don't think


Vince we are agreeing when it comes to the mental state of these killers...but the point i am making to you is revenge is not just a mental state of the healthy. As others have stated many, not all, of these killers are mentally ill and lashing out at those who they believe have wronged them...that is revenge.

Butch

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 7:59:51 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As others have stated many, not all, of these killers are mentally ill and lashing out at those who they believe have wronged them...that is revenge.

It's only revenge if their beliefs about who has wronged them are correct. That isn't always (or even often, come to that) the case.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 8:00:12 AM   
Lynnxz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright, the fact that under the current law, there is no way to stop a mentally unstable, untreated person from obtaining firearms.

That has been one of the things I have been screaming about since this debate started.

All I have gotten in response is that forcing someone to get treatment is unconstitutional, or forcing the doctors to report such people is a violation of Doctor/Patent privilege.




Just popping in to say you CAN force someone to get treatment if they appear dangerous. I have summoned EMTs and Police to my facility twice, personally, to take someone against their will to the nearest behavioral health center. Straight up, tackled in the hall, handcuffed to the gurney, rolled out of there kicking and screaming.

It IS possible, but some pussyfoot around that process because of the high risk of lawsuits, (and paperwork... oh GOD the paperwork).

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 8:15:46 AM   
Lynnxz


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From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Browsing through the rest of these responses, it doesn't look like anyone really grasps the enormity of serious, untreated mental illness. Some of these people feel driven, maybe from internal 'demons', or the voice of God, (or their mother, in a couple cases).

I've met a felon who, after killing several small children, hoarded paper and rags in his jail cell, sat in the middle, and lit the whole thing on fire. When I asked him why he'd do something like that, he told me he was commanded to do so- by the same voice that told him about "the babies."

Another man was convinced he was a vampire, and had been arrested for ripping open packages of chicken innards in a supermarket and devouring them, spreading gore all over the store before they could get him out.

It's unfair to these people to say they are seeking fame, when they're just looking for a way out. Mental help in this country is absolutely abysmal, and needs a complete overhaul. On the same topic, this is a simulation I ran into several months ago. Developed by a mental health worker, it is meant to mimic the voices heard by some with auditory hallucinations. Pop a pair of headphones on, give this a listen, and tell me how long YOU could keep your shit together.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 8:56:28 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Butch, some have reported they were commanded by God or heard other voices. In which case these are really poor tormented sick people. Assigning motives such as seeking revenge or fame is a trivial response to their illness. Assigning such common motives for any such demented spree killing trivialises the human condition and distracts from the core question of why these people are so fucked up. It layers on a coating of normative motives to bizarre and quite unusual behavior. Mentally healthy people may seek fame or revenge but they do not use such extreme methods I don't think.

Vincent, I don't want people to think that I'm of the belief that anybody who wants to take out a dozen people is mentally stable. I don't think all of these cases are Son of Sam type voices in the head. When Butch listed examples of the mothers and their children, I know there have been some cases where postpartum depression had become so bad that it was the driving force. Completely different to Me than the woman who is more interested in keeping the new boyfriend so she does the unthinkable.

What peon added to the thread was rather interesting in discussing the drive behind depression. The anger, the wanting to lash out, etc. I was thinking when I started the thread that the same type could also have similar angles. The ignored being noticed. The impotent showing the world they have a form of power, even if just for that short while that all of the world is focused on them.



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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 8:57:19 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

There are a massive number of suicides, some using guns, some using guns against other people first...

Are you seriously claiming that because some of them have auditory hallucinations, that we can't explore motives for any of them? Why not?

The motives are only symptoms that arise out of deranged fantasy. Dwelling on motives is like focusing on runny noses when we know the underlying cause is a bacterial or virus infection. What does it avail us to parse the motives of a paranoid schizophrenic when the poor soul needs treatment for a deeper ailment?

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 9:06:28 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Mentally healthy people may seek fame or revenge but they do not use such extreme methods I don't think


Vince we are agreeing when it comes to the mental state of these killers...but the point i am making to you is revenge is not just a mental state of the healthy. As others have stated many, not all, of these killers are mentally ill and lashing out at those who they believe have wronged them...that is revenge.

Butch

Butch, mostlly we are in agreement here. But, two points that concern me.

1. Comparing the revenge sought by the mentally healthy to the revenge sought by the mentally ill is a false equivalent because the revenge sought by the latter grows out of fantasy. Big difference when we are talking about spree killers I think.

2. By what criteria can we say that NOT all of these spree killers are mentally ill? Most in the U.S. committed suicide. From what data base does the study and ascertion arise that not all are mentally ill? It seems to me that it is conjecture drawn because of the elaborate planning and preparation some have undertaken. Who is to say that all that planning and preparation is not part and parcel of the fantasy?


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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 9:28:57 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Vincent, I don't want people to think that I'm of the belief that anybody who wants to take out a dozen people is mentally stable. I don't think all of these cases are Son of Sam type voices in the head. When Butch listed examples of the mothers and their children, I know there have been some cases where postpartum depression had become so bad that it was the driving force. Completely different to Me than the woman who is more interested in keeping the new boyfriend so she does the unthinkable.

What peon added to the thread was rather interesting in discussing the drive behind depression. The anger, the wanting to lash out, etc. I was thinking when I started the thread that the same type could also have similar angles. The ignored being noticed. The impotent showing the world they have a form of power, even if just for that short while that all of the world is focused on them.

I don't think we have much disagreement LP. What seems to be common amongst these individuals is a history of withdrawal from the world and inept social skills. They are oddball out. No question. Partly due to their own inept behavior and inability to communicate. They seem to live within their own shell [from what I have read] There is also some evidence of a "kinship" between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. I have suffered the latter and know the feeling of anger and impatience with people I encounter. But the long term fantasy and preparation undertaken by these spree killers and serial killers like Dahmer suggest that they are not acting spontaneously. So, as I suggested to Butch above and as I agree with you here that need for power or revenge may be part of their fantasy. But, the motivations you suggested imho are not sufficient drivers. I think scientists need to deconstruct downward from those motivations to the development of elaborate fantasies and from there to the underlying causes of those fantasies. Which brings us to the seemingly insolvable Nurture v Nature debate. My own position is that these folks are born in great pain with disfunctional brain circuitry that someday will be traced back to their genome. We had that discussion on another thread and there was some vehement disagreement with my position. I thank you for the thread, LP. It is interesting.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 11:23:34 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

It's only revenge if their beliefs about who has wronged them are correct


Sure but it is correct to them...so what difference does it make

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 11:30:35 AM   
LizDeluxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If they're going anyway, why not?
Just look at the dead junkie out of Nirvana: would anybody still give a toss about him or his band if he hadn't used buckshot to drain his sinuses? There are plenty of idiots who'd rather die a "legend" than live in obscurity, and they aren't all mass murderers.


While I wasn't a fan Cobain was actually rather famous before he offed himself and to my knowledge he wasn't a mass killer. Comparing Cobain's motivation for killing only himself to Adam Lanza's reasons for Sandy Hook... that's such an irrelevant stretch I'm not even going attempt to decode it.



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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 11:30:53 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Comparing the revenge sought by the mentally healthy to the revenge sought by the mentally ill is a false equivalent because the revenge sought by the latter grows out of fantasy.


I am not doing this.

quote:

By what criteria can we say that NOT all of these spree killers are mentally ill? Most in the U.S. committed suicide. From what data base does the study and ascertion arise that not all are mentally ill? It seems to me that it is conjecture drawn because of the elaborate planning and preparation some have undertaken. Who is to say that all that planning and preparation is not part and parcel of the fantasy


And I agree... just because there is planning does not make them of sound mind...Mentally ill just means not of sound mind and thoughts and actions outside the norm of a society... I would say the people we are talking about meet those criteria.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 3:51:32 PM   
Powergamz1


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Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Then maybe you should actually read what some of us have posted, instead throwing around false generalizations like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

<SNIP>it doesn't look like anyone really grasps the enormity of serious, untreated mental illness.


<SNIP>It's unfair to these people to say they are seeking fame, when they're just looking for a way out.



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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 3:53:51 PM   
Powergamz1


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Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Ahh, good. So you've discovered the cure for the epidemic of suicides. Well, don't keep it a secret.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are a massive number of suicides, some using guns, some using guns against other people first...

Are you seriously claiming that because some of them have auditory hallucinations, that we can't explore motives for any of them? Why not?

The motives are only symptoms that arise out of deranged fantasy. Dwelling on motives is like focusing on runny noses when we know the underlying cause is a bacterial or virus infection. What does it avail us to parse the motives of a paranoid schizophrenic when the poor soul needs treatment for a deeper ailment?



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 4:57:45 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Ahh, good. So you've discovered the cure for the epidemic of suicides. Well, don't keep it a secret.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are a massive number of suicides, some using guns, some using guns against other people first...

Are you seriously claiming that because some of them have auditory hallucinations, that we can't explore motives for any of them? Why not?

The motives are only symptoms that arise out of deranged fantasy. Dwelling on motives is like focusing on runny noses when we know the underlying cause is a bacterial or virus infection. What does it avail us to parse the motives of a paranoid schizophrenic when the poor soul needs treatment for a deeper ailment?




What a curious thing you say. Where did I ever make such a claim? Well, enjoy your fantasy but take care.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 5:31:33 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Are we now trying to equate suicide with mass killings? That is pure nonsense.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 5:58:35 PM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are we now trying to equate suicide with mass killings? That is pure nonsense.


It is really not nonsense, as been reported some mass murders have commited suicide before being captured.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 6:30:19 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz




quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright, the fact that under the current law, there is no way to stop a mentally unstable, untreated person from obtaining firearms.

That has been one of the things I have been screaming about since this debate started.

All I have gotten in response is that forcing someone to get treatment is unconstitutional, or forcing the doctors to report such people is a violation of Doctor/Patent privilege.




Just popping in to say you CAN force someone to get treatment if they appear dangerous. I have summoned EMTs and Police to my facility twice, personally, to take someone against their will to the nearest behavioral health center. Straight up, tackled in the hall, handcuffed to the gurney, rolled out of there kicking and screaming.

It IS possible, but some pussyfoot around that process because of the high risk of lawsuits, (and paperwork... oh GOD the paperwork).


Thank you Lynnxz, in my previous post I should have expaned on this. First off no where in the Constitutional is forcing a doctor to violate the doctor/patient privilge, the privilge is medical not legal. There are laws that do require a doctor to inform authorities when a patient is dangerous. Now as to treatment, generally but not in the Constitution can a person refuse treatment. There are exceptions, most notiably in criminal cases. In case such as sex offense, drugs and alcohol a judge can sentence the accused to treatment. Being treated can be a part of the sentence, prison do have treatment centers, diversion, and/or Probation/Parole terms. Failure to comply can bring new charges. Another way of forcing treatment is in conservatorship, when a person is for reasons not able to care for themselves, the can be placed in conservatorship and be required to be treated, both in medication and hospitalization.

Now, there has been some discussion on those mentally ill as in my view scapgoats as a blanket cause for many recent events. It is true that some of these do involve mental illness. But the fact is that those mentally ill are no more violent then any other group. Further it is more likely that a mentally ill person will commit suicide before acting out and killing, some even will seek help.

There has been talk of displaced anger, hallucinations, grandiose thinking. I am reminded of the case of Jeffery Dahmer, who murder 17 men, dismembered them and practice cabbubalsim. At his trial Dahmer pled not guilty by reason of insanity. The Judge in the case had Dahmer examined by Daniel Friedman, Friedman did find some history distress in Jeffery life, the main source being demanding parents, but what motiviated Jeffery to do what he did, simply Jeffery wanted to do it.

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RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 8:40:31 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Are you once again trolling?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are we now trying to equate suicide with mass killings? That is pure nonsense.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 9:50:52 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Are you once again trolling?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are we now trying to equate suicide with mass killings? That is pure nonsense.




No, I was responding to various posts that seemed to imply a person killing themselves was equal to a person killing a bunch of people before killing themselves. It isnt, not by any stretch of the imagination.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Grasping for fame - 1/24/2013 10:53:54 PM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Are you once again trolling?
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Are we now trying to equate suicide with mass killings? That is pure nonsense.




No, I was responding to various posts that seemed to imply a person killing themselves was equal to a person killing a bunch of people before killing themselves. It isnt, not by any stretch of the imagination.


In a research specifically related to murder–suicide, Milton Rosenbaum (1990) discovered the murder–suicide perpetrators to be vastly different from perpetrators of homicide alone. Whereas murderer–suicides were found to be highly depressed and overwhelmingly men, other murderers were not generally depressed and more likely to include women in their ranks.[2] In the U.S. the overwhelming number of cases are male-on-female and involve guns.[3] Around one-third of partner homicides end in the suicide of the perpetrator. From national and international data and interviews with family members of murder–suicide perpetrators, the following are the key predictors of murder–suicide: access to a gun, a history of substance abuse, the male partner some years older than the female partner, a break-up or pending break-up, a history of battering, and suicidal ideation by the perpetrator.

Though there is no national tracking system for murder–suicides in the United States, medical studies into the phenomenon estimate between 1,000 to 1,500 deaths per year in the US,[4] with the majority occurring between spouses or intimate partners, males were the vast majority of the perpetrators, and over 90% of murder suicides involved a firearm. Depression, marital or/and financial problems, and other problems are generally motivators.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/record-number-murdersuicides-here-last-year

Some studies sugguest that suicide by the person commiting mass murder happens about 54% of the time

More reading

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-kimmel/the-unbearable-whiteness-_2_b_2350931.html

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 1/24/2013 10:58:07 PM >

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