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Welfare vs Charity


Welfare is theft.
  9% (8)
Welfare is moral and just.
  20% (18)
Welfare is theft, but in the service of a greater good, it's needed.
  5% (5)
The welfare state does more harm than good.
  23% (20)
Welfare given to big business is far more troubling to me.
  40% (35)


Total Votes : 86
(last vote on : 2/26/2013 10:50:04 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 5:47:33 PM   
Level


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quote:

There are people in need of help. Charity is one of the nobler human motivations. The act of reaching into one's own pockets to help a fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.


Attributed to Libertarian economist Dr. Walter E. Williams

Welfare, meaning government assistance.



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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 5:49:24 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Out of curiosity, Level, was this thread inspired by another thread regarding a person committing fraud?


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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 5:56:22 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		No, LP; I saw the quote a couple of weeks ago, and it's just something that I thought would make a good conversation.

You have cmail, too

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 6:05:58 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Voted for now. I'll be back (assuming the thread doesn't get locked and deleted, for violating Lib/Dem dogma).

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 6:09:28 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
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Status: offline 		Lol Rich

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 6:45:42 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		He is a libertarian, I wouldnt expect anything else...

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 8:00:18 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Who committed fraud ?

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 8:13:44 PM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

There are people in need of help. Charity is one of the nobler human motivations. The act of reaching into one's own pockets to help a fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.


Attributed to Libertarian economist Dr. Walter E. Williams

Welfare, meaning government assistance.





So you're saying that welfare is bad because people ask for it?

< Message edited by Baroana -- 2/22/2013 8:23:13 PM >

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 8:18:33 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No,I'm asking who committed fraud ,as implied by LP's post,lol....I made no assertions at all

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 8:19:51 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Welfare is for the public good.

Like a firehouse or police station.

The public should pay for it.

It doesn`t move me much when a "deep thinker" claims they shouldn`t pay in b/c they`d never take public assistance or publicly funded medical procedure ,yada yada....

Even a world class douche-bag like Ayn Rand took welfare b/c she needed to eat.

Do normal folks need to apologies for pointing out that republicans gush and cream themselves over Rand?







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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 8:21:44 PM   
Baroana


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Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No,I'm asking who committed fraud ,as implied by LP's post,lol....I made no assertions at all



Not you, the OP. I'll edit.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 9:03:51 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Lol Rich



I don't know if that is a, "you can laugh, or you can scream, and it's healthier to laugh," Lol, Level, or more in the vein of disbelief, but speaking as someone who has started more than a few threads on the subject, I'm not kidding.

I've probably commented 100 times or more (including in threads that are no longer in the public access areas of the site) that is is right and proper that a nation such as ours should have a safety net, but that it should never be allowed to become a hammock.

One of them had a link to a really excellent, well written, article on the impact our poverty maintenance programs have had. Ignore the title of the piece, because it really isn't much about the President at all. It's a longish read, but I found it worth the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/magazine/obama-poverty.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Note the little story at the beginning, about teenagers sitting in the car with their tax-payer funded mentor who is supposed to help them develop the skills to rise out of poverty, complaining about how cold it is in their house because of a hole in the front window, and that it occurs to none of them to get some cardboard or grocery store bags, and cover the damn hole. Note at the end of the story, when the teenage boy is being given a plaque for having a little job, and not deserting the two children he has sired, that there is still a hole in his window, but it is not a big deal because it is summer.

I'm happy to have the conversation, if there is one to be had, but you'll just have to forgive me if I assume the gathering gaggle will, as so many times before, be allowed to shit all over the attempt, and get what they want from their efforts.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 9:23:11 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Your story reminds me so much of somebody I know. This kid tried and suffered to get of his parents house and finally succeeded. When he did, though, his mother wouldn't let him leave with anything except the clothes on his back--literally. And she keeps trying to talk him into moving back home.

He's not really a "kid" anymore. He's 22. Been living in his own apartment for 2 1/2 years in a high rise apartment complex paid far partly by section 8. (He's disabled). He has friends, a volunteer job and a growing social life. And every couple months he sets aside a few dollars to purchase something small to make his apartment more "personal" more like a home with pictures and small touches to make it his own.

In contrast, his parents live in the middle of nowhere, in a rundown house with broken windows, doors falling off their hinges, a leaking roof and no furnace. This is in Erie County, PA where the winters are cold!! This "kid's" father works full time, his sister has cerebral palsy and is on SSI, and his retired grandmother also lives in the household--so there is plenty of money coming into house. But instead of doing repairs on the home, the family spends money each year on vacations to places like TX and CA; they buy new cars; and animals. Mom just spent $800 on a dog a few months ago (she has 5 of them now). The "kid" knows exactly why he keeps being asked to move back home, mom wants his social security check and that's all she wants. Oh, and she might want somebody to take care of her dogs.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/22/2013 9:41:12 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

There are people in need of help. Charity is one of the nobler human motivations. The act of reaching into one's own pockets to help a fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else's pocket is despicable and worthy of condemnation.


Attributed to Libertarian economist Dr. Walter E. Williams

Welfare, meaning government assistance.





to keep a heart pumping not a problem.

to keep a corporation or worse a conglomerate running I dont give a fuck what it is, just because the supreme corrupt court calls them the same name thre is no blood in a corporate person. Fuck em, they were meant to die so others can move into the spot and reduce monopolistic control of the few.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 12:21:56 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Welfare is good, but welfare state is bad. When the number of people needing welfare reaches certain limit the country goes down the toilet if the trend is not reversed. Without any doubt the US has serious problems in this area. Adding to the disaster is the fact welfare state is supported by government borrowing.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 1:51:11 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		The welfare system is broke, plain and simple. It doesn't work. The rules, regulations and laws that are in place actually penalize people for becoming self sufficient. A minimum wage PART TIME job will give you income that takes away all your benefits, yet you definitely aren't earning enough to keep a roof over your head, and feed your family. They have a jacked up "tier system" where a person will keep certain benefits after returning to work, but there is not plan on how they will survive after that time.

Welfare workers, for the most part, are tired and jaded. I don't buy into the bullshit of overworked, too many clients, blah blah blah. Anyone who goes into that job and doesn't know the pay is shit and you will be overworked lived under a rock. The truth is that most take the position just long enough to keep it on their resume for when they go into private practice as a Social Worker doing counseling. So there is constant roll over. The offices intentionally keep workers from communicating about clients, so one worker has no idea when a client has spoken to another worker, and the status of that particular problem.

Yes, there are problems with children growing up in poverty, but until the system gets fixed, things simply aren't going to change.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 1:51:26 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		I remember back in the 70's in college I knew a couple of guys who bragged how they had it made collecting welfare and selling pot. This was before the reforms and along with food stamps ya got a check and all the rest of it. Too often people loot the system when they don't need it. Now days some women loot the system by having more kids thus increasing the amounts they receive and the length of time they can keep collecting. Of course we all know this. It's a vicious circle when we subsidize having kids. We simply get more of it.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 1:57:35 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I remember back in the 70's in college I knew a couple of guys who bragged how they had it made collecting welfare and selling pot. This was before the reforms and along with food stamps ya got a check and all the rest of it. Too often people loot the system when they don't need it. Now days some women loot the system by having more kids thus increasing the amounts they receive and the length of time they can keep collecting. Of course we all know this. It's a vicious circle when we subsidize having kids. We simply get more of it.


What you all "know" is an Urban Myth. The government has put a regulation in place that a woman who is on welfare and has another child will NOT get an increase in benefits.

Do you have any idea what a single mother with one child gets in assistance? I know it varies by state, but even just in your home state of Florida, do you know what the amount is?

When you can adequately answer that question, then you can talk about how the system is messed up. Until then, all you have are what other people tell you, like the Urban Myth about women having children to get more cash assistance.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 3:20:43 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I find it strange that if you use one form of assistance, such as the state mental health agency, and dont use the others you qualify for, they can charge you for using the one.

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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 3:23:30 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No,I'm asking who committed fraud ,as implied by LP's post,lol....I made no assertions at all



Not you, the OP. I'll edit.


I think a decent society helps those that GENUINELY need it. I think we should fo a far better job of culling those that abuse the system, and helping others to transition off of the system.

I do think it's theft to take money I earned, and give it to someone I don't know, or to spend it on something I don't agree with, but I also believe that it's neccessary. As appealing as libertarianism may be to me, I can't embrace an ideology that would entail "to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs", and know that those eggs include innocent human beings.

< Message edited by Level -- 2/23/2013 3:24:42 AM >

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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