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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 11:37:51 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I am not talking about not being allowed in events.I am just talking about the overall impression in general towards male subs.No,I can't ever think of any situation where male subs were denied access to a event,unless it was stated before hand that single male subs may not enter due to other reasons.Usually a swingers party,which I clearly understand that.
That would be stereotyping or people having a different opinion. That's not discrimination. The latter term gets thrown around way too much, in My opinion. If you aren't being permitted to go where others go, within the parameters of the event, and you've done nothing via personal actions for people to prevent your attendance, THAT would be discrimination. (Doesn't apply, of course, if you've given reason not to be welcome, like breaking the dungeon rules.)

As for stereotyping, let's be very realistic. There are times those stereotypes are earned. Lots of public clubs have seen 'creepy, stalker guy' come and go. Plenty of tourists have paved the way for people to have been known to ask inappropriate things, like asking complete strangers if they can lick their shoes. The reason that everybody knows the term "do-me" is because it happens often enough.

In fairness, however, male subs aren't the only ones who deal with stereotypes. If anybody, switches get the worst rep because everybody knows somebody who was in a relationship with a switch who tried to turn the tables in power structure. Femdoms? How many people think they are all bitchy or ice queens? Male Doms are just looking to get laid, of course. (bullshit) Fem subs? Well, haven't you heard that they just want to brat but have a Dom to take care of them? It's not the way that everybody is, but there are enough examples that keep the stereotypes going.

Do you want to know who really *was* discriminated against for some time? Transfolks. This was particularly true for a time for those who were MtF. Transwomen (pre op and even post op) weren't always allowed to attend events for females. (This was where I saw it happening because I was participating in Femdom events. I'm sure it was out there the other way, too, but I don't attend functions focused on male Doms.) Literally, people living as women were told they weren't *really* women, so they weren't allowed to attend. THAT is discrimination.

While we are on the topic of what is and what is not discrimination, there are a few things in the not category that folks really do need to consider when going to kink events. I have the advantage of experience on this one because I change location every 2-5 years, so I have to integrate into new areas fairly regularly. I also happen to be pretty successful at it.

What people need to remember is that kink groups are no different than any other established social groups. YOU are the new person that means whether you do well there or not is, for the most part YOUR responsibility. Your ability to do well in groups, pick up social cues, how you present yourself, and all of the other stuff that applies in the non kink world will be the same. It's not any different than if you go to the birthday party of a friend of a friend where you don't know anybody. All of those other people probably already know each other, enjoy each others company, had socialization plans for the evening, and had plans on how they were going to interact with others while there. Those things don't change just because you happened to show up. It's not up to them to make sure you have a good time. It's up to you. If you happen to fail at that task, that's not discrimination, either.



LP, Nicely put......the whole thing is right spot on to what I have experienced. The issue with trans folks is true, and a lot of it was at women only events (or as they used to put it, 'women only events'), the lesbian leatherfolk were bloody awful about trans folks, straight women generally had less problems though some did), ironically, though, many 'women's only' play parties will let F to M trans people attend, go figure. LSM in NYC was trans exclusive for a number of years, there was quite an internal fight about allowing transwomen in there (I never belonged to it, I could of, by the time I transitioned they had had at least one M to F, a domme I wouldn't want to mess around with *smile*).

I have to say in the leather groups I was involved in, I didn't have problems, they were supportive as hell, loved that I was finding myself, and almost all of them (except for a few uptight leatherdykes who everyone ignored anyway), I was treated well by gay, straight, pansexual , ? members of the community....the gay leather guys were sweethearts, and I could understand them not wanting me there, because I wasn't a gay guy (though they did invite me to some of their events, simply because they often weren't uptight about others coming to their events, if simply as friends:).

I started out as a sub male, and I have to say I don't know what Charles is talking about. Collarme/collarchat is a wonderful resource, but as a sign of reality it is frankly bullshit, it isn't the real world. I think there is some tendency about male subs to be wary of them, but it is for good reason, male subs remind me of trans admirers, they seem to get wrapped up in themself and forget they are dealing with a human being. I had tranny admirers come up to me and start massaging my feet or touching me without permission, I saw male subs at events I was at later on as Lauren who somehow assumed I was domme, and wanted to lick my shoes or wanted me to pee on them or step on them in my shoes (ick, sub is just so hard to get off the soles of high class boots, once I step on them, they have to be thrown out, they are contaminated *lol*)....no hello, no introductions, just some creepy "lowly worm" type of person demanding service, I don't blame people for being turned off, I was.......

I don't think male subs are looked down upon, by femme doms of any kind, male doms, or by female subs, I don't think they think they are worthless or icky or anything like that, I never experienced that in my original days. TES in NYC was founded by sub men, and believe me, those guys were looked upon as heroes, not losers:).

I agree switches often face that, a friend of mine, who is well known in both the NYC and US leather scenes (goes to conferences, does demos, blogs, you name it), took shit like that because she switches, being told she would be taken with more authority if she decided on one or other other, and that happened a lot to her (I would love to see the response, my friend has quite the caustic tongue:).

In general, I tended to find the leather people were a lot more non discriminatory then a lot of the LGBT community can be, but that was my experience.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 1:00:35 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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Thanks for that, Lauren. A lot of what you are saying here confirms what I've run across. Sometimes, folks (even Me) kind of lump the BDSM community in with the leather community. There are even many (most) events that have a cross section of both. However, if we're going to talk about times that changed, I think that's an area that has. I think the leather community was just a tad bit ahead on accepting Trans people at certain events. (Yes, even when there were some who dragged their feet.) My personal observations were when trans folks were barred from events that were BDSM venues.

Then, you have to add in the part that Lilly mentioned. I've seen that, too. When after all kinds of debate, the venue owner finally stops putting the stipulation of 'only biological women' on an event, then there is the event itself. The discrimination for entry ended but some of the folks weren't exactly thrilled with the reception that they received. It wasn't that anyone was flat out mean. It was more that many of the people didn't go out of their way to make the new additions welcome. Technically though, this relieved the venue owner of the discrimination accusations and puts it on individuals who get to choose who they socialize with and who they do not.

I went to a really good group as a visitor somewhere around three or four years ago. Great people, wonderful educational venue, etc. I was always treated well there. Technically, I wasn't a member, but I was there often enough that I knew everyone. (I'll add in here that they always gave Me permission to attend "member's only" events and other things, so when I say they treated Me well, I meant it.) At this particular happening, I got the best lesson in perception that I think I've ever come away with.

On this particular night, there were two males who happened to be "new". Roughly the same age, etc. One guy did really well in that social setting, met and chatted with people, and had a great time. The other was just the opposite. Even after the evening, when posts were being made thanking the host the next day and so forth, the comments from these two guys were like night and day. They had completely different perceptions of how it turned out for them, even though they were in the same room with the same people.

So, I'm not so quick to say that 'people who fall in group X' aren't treated well. Sometimes, there can be people in group X that do just fine when another member of group X doesn't. More often than not, I find it was the individual who happened to belong to group X that doesn't have the same strengths as the others in that category. Of course, it isn't all that often that you'll hear the individual say that they need to work on being interesting to talk to or how they can improve their socialization skills. It's just plain easier to blame the other people in the room.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 1:14:30 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thanks for that, Lauren. A lot of what you are saying here confirms what I've run across. Sometimes, folks (even Me) kind of lump the BDSM community in with the leather community. There are even many (most) events that have a cross section of both. However, if we're going to talk about times that changed, I think that's an area that has. I think the leather community was just a tad bit ahead on accepting Trans people at certain events. (Yes, even when there were some who dragged their feet.) My personal observations were when trans folks were barred from events that were BDSM venues.

Then, you have to add in the part that Lilly mentioned. I've seen that, too. When after all kinds of debate, the venue owner finally stops putting the stipulation of 'only biological women' on an event, then there is the event itself. The discrimination for entry ended but some of the folks weren't exactly thrilled with the reception that they received. It wasn't that anyone was flat out mean. It was more that many of the people didn't go out of their way to make the new additions welcome. Technically though, this relieved the venue owner of the discrimination accusations and puts it on individuals who get to choose who they socialize with and who they do not.

I went to a really good group as a visitor somewhere around three or four years ago. Great people, wonderful educational venue, etc. I was always treated well there. Technically, I wasn't a member, but I was there often enough that I knew everyone. (I'll add in here that they always gave Me permission to attend "member's only" events and other things, so when I say they treated Me well, I meant it.) At this particular happening, I got the best lesson in perception that I think I've ever come away with.

On this particular night, there were two males who happened to be "new". Roughly the same age, etc. One guy did really well in that social setting, met and chatted with people, and had a great time. The other was just the opposite. Even after the evening, when posts were being made thanking the host the next day and so forth, the comments from these two guys were like night and day. They had completely different perceptions of how it turned out for them, even though they were in the same room with the same people.

So, I'm not so quick to say that 'people who fall in group X' aren't treated well. Sometimes, there can be people in group X that do just fine when another member of group X doesn't. More often than not, I find it was the individual who happened to belong to group X that doesn't have the same strengths as the others in that category. Of course, it isn't all that often that you'll hear the individual say that they need to work on being interesting to talk to or how they can improve their socialization skills. It's just plain easier to blame the other people in the room.


Actually, I am lumping bd/sm with the leather community, in the circles I have been in, they don't really distinguish, people who are lifestyle BD/SM, D/s, etc will refer to themselves as members of the leather community....I always found the distinction to be a bit nebulous, I guess leather is the fetish people versus BD/SM people..:). I don't really care about the labels much,plus for example, if you go to a club like Paddles in NYC, you will see both the BD/SM and leather fetish people.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 1:42:33 PM   
njlauren


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Back to the original topic:

I think in many ways these are better times, I can see clear reasons to say so. The internet in some way has been a curse, it has spawned a whole cyber community of wankers, trolls, and people who think because they read forums they know the right and proper way to do things, when they probably don't know which end of a flogger is which, but drive others up the wall (I don't even like that kind of attitude from people who do have experience, let alone wankers). The internet makes it easier to meet people, but it also means it is a lot easy for people to screw themselves up in meeting people who might not be kosher (yeah, back in the bad old days, there were personal ads that could get you into trouble, but they took effort to put out there, get responses, etc......bit different then trolling craigslist and so forth). On the other hand, if someone really wants information, there is a ton of information on the net that wasn't there back in the day, you want to find out something, you can, with a bit of searching. Again, you may have to cull through the crap, the stupid and the downright plain dangerous, but at least it is there, if for anything that there are other people like you. Like any tool, the internet can be used to enhance or hurt, but it still makes life easier as someone into bd/sm then it once was, also broke the hold of the idiotic "old guard' crap.

Too, I think attitudes have changed pretty rapidly, though it isn't perfect (talk to someone from NCSF about that). I think awareness is there among many people, things like 50 shades of gray and other e-books, have opened some eyes to what is out there, even if to those reading it it may still be a fantasy thing (not everyone who reads these books needs to run out and buy rope)........it is like something I ran into years ago, there was a lot of debate among trans folks about whether the talk shows covering the topic was good or bad (and given the sensationalized nature, it often was a less then positive thing), but then once with a friend I ran into these two old women, and they were like "Oh, I saw something about trans folks on XYZ show, it is really good that finally people can be themselves, live as they need to, I had never even thought about what it must be like to be like someone who is transgender"). It takes it from the realm of "oh my god" to "Hey, I read the book X, and it was pretty interesting". If it is in people's consciousness and it was presented in a somewhat positive fashion (as opposed to having the image shaped by religious groups or conservative politicians out for another victim to crucify).

More importantly, perhaps because of the net and broader information being out there, younger people, those 30 and under, simply are less and less likely to care what others do, they already are much, much more affirming of LGBT people, and most of them tend to be pretty libertarian about issues, that as long as it doesn't affect them, who cares). No, not all young people are going to be affirming, those who grew up in religious conservative households, the ones who don't run away from it as soon as they can, won't be great, and education plays a large role, as well, so even there you can run into idiots.

That doesn't mean it is a panacea, it just indicates that as time goes on, as the religious conservatives of all kinds continue to lose their power, and as the older generations die off, it is likely to get better. These days, I think it is a lot more likely that being outed as into BD/SM is going to cause real damage, that is getting better, but doesn't mean it is perfect. There are employers who will fire employees they find out about, there are places where CPS can be called if parents are found to be into BD/SM, there are people who if they find out will think it is their duty to gossip about them and otherwise be assholes, but it is definitely getting better. I know of a couple of cases in this area (NY/NJ Metro region) where spouses tried to introduce evidence of BD/SM into divorce proceedings, and the courts refused to take it into account in terms of custody and such (unless someone could show that for example, the person involved had done something stupid, like involved the kid in it, let them see certain things,which BTW would be true of anything sexual, not a great idea to have sex in front of the young 'ins.

I think that wider acceptance will come as more and more people come out of the closet, so to speak, and with publicizing that people into this are their next door neighbors. One of the reasons the religious ding dong's want to censor the net, are constantly throwing threats of boycotts about tv programs and books and programs of tolerance in schools towards LGBT people, is they know that ignorance and hate only flourishes in environments where the truth is not out there. One piece of conventional wisdom is very true, that people who have known or been exposed to gay people or even gay characters are much more likely to be accepting then those who never has. The religious right promulgates the idea that LGBT people are all pederasts, sexually promiscuous and so forth, that gay parents can't raise kids properly, and they do everything in their power to make sure that is the only view out there; but when people see the gay couple next door with the kids (male or female), when they see the cousin or whatever, they start realizing the haters are the fucked up ones. Young people, thanks to the fact that the religious nazi's and their politician allies have failed, are knowledgeable in large numbers, and that is the future. With BD/SM, I think it is going to be the same thing, that people into it, not everyone, but people have to be visible and talking about themselves, through a variety of media. I am not saying everyone should go an out themselves, or make themselves targets, I am saying that the more we get this out there, that people put faces to it, you get rid of the bad stereotypes. People willing to do that are brave sorts and deserve any kudos they get, people in past decades who were brave enough to come out openly as LGBT were much the same, and it is effective:). If for anything, with all the problems in the world, real issues, like jobs, healthcare, competing against third world labor, environment concerns, which bitch is going to be kicked of one of the 'real housewives of xxx' series (okay, maybe for the gay guys who watch these programs it is important *lol*), it is that people have stopped caring about whom sleeps with whom, what position they use, and so forth, and the people who do care about such things (generally the uber religious types, like the RC leadership) are more and more marginalized.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 2:09:56 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Actually, I am lumping bd/sm with the leather community, in the circles I have been in, they don't really distinguish, people who are lifestyle BD/SM, D/s, etc will refer to themselves as members of the leather community....I always found the distinction to be a bit nebulous, I guess leather is the fetish people versus BD/SM people..:). I don't really care about the labels much,plus for example, if you go to a club like Paddles in NYC, you will see both the BD/SM and leather fetish people.
No, leather is the leather lifestyle people (protocols, seniority, etc) as opposed to the BDSM people. The distinction that I was making was that you didn't have the 'biological women only' in the f/f play areas at actual leather events (SELF, SPLF, etc) but you did see that drag behind at BDSM clubs. There are leather fetish people, but those are the folks who have a specific fetish for the material of leather.

Easiest way to tell the difference? Ask people if they bought the cap or vest that they are wearing. A fetish person or even one who just likes wearing leather will tell you what store it came from. A leather person will tell you the history of the people who wore it before them.


ETA - Since we are talking about different groups, does anybody from the Gorean board want to chime in their perspective?



< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/9/2013 2:33:33 PM >


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 3:38:36 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Actually, I am lumping bd/sm with the leather community, in the circles I have been in, they don't really distinguish, people who are lifestyle BD/SM, D/s, etc will refer to themselves as members of the leather community....I always found the distinction to be a bit nebulous, I guess leather is the fetish people versus BD/SM people..:). I don't really care about the labels much,plus for example, if you go to a club like Paddles in NYC, you will see both the BD/SM and leather fetish people.
No, leather is the leather lifestyle people (protocols, seniority, etc) as opposed to the BDSM people. The distinction that I was making was that you didn't have the 'biological women only' in the f/f play areas at actual leather events (SELF, SPLF, etc) but you did see that drag behind at BDSM clubs. There are leather fetish people, but those are the folks who have a specific fetish for the material of leather.

Easiest way to tell the difference? Ask people if they bought the cap or vest that they are wearing. A fetish person or even one who just likes wearing leather will tell you what store it came from. A leather person will tell you the history of the people who wore it before them. The groups I had contact with were a mixture of styles and such, from lifestyle D/s to people who simply played, some leather folk, some just into it for whatever reason:)


ETA - Since we are talking about different groups, does anybody from the Gorean board want to chime in their perspective?



Aha, you learn something every day, I think I finally understand the difference (I never found the protocol thing, the training regimens, the titles and such to be very interesting to me, but what the heck). Knew people into that, just never paid attention to the distinction..and if I asked someone where they got their leather, it was likely to be "where did you get those boots, think they might have my size?" "Where did you ever find that corset,I think that would really look good on me" *lol*.

BTW, a fix for my last post, I inadvertently said it was more likely you would get in trouble being exposed as into BD/SM at work, when I meant to say it was less likely. Even a lot of self identified conservatives are coming back more to a libertarian perspective, that they can't preach getting the government off our backs and then support the religious right/social conservative position of having the government care who we have on their backs or in what form *shrug*

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 5:58:50 PM   
Charles6682


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From: Saint Pete,FL
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I decided to finally come out of the "closest" so to speak because I got tired of hiding who I am.I don't wear it on my sleeve but I'm not afraid to say who I am.It can be awkward sometimes if someone doesn't understand but usually,once they know,most people I've come across don't care.Of course,I am in that 30 and younger age range.I grew up with the whole "live andf let live" mentality,which is more common among younger generations.

I sometimes compare the modern day BDSM culture to the "Gay Rights" movement of decades before.You are correct Laura,there needs to be a face to all of this.I assume people in the gay community got tired of being treated like second class citizens and did something about it.I know where I live,it is very "gay friendly".Theres even a "gay resort" near by.This is Florida after all,theres a resort for everybody,probaly even the kinksters.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/9/2013 6:01:14 PM >


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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 8:10:36 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
A lady dominant was once overheard to say "sometimes I just like to hit him until the 'feeling' goes away." And she was congratulated. If a male had said something similar it would be "omgz red flag!"

*laughs* uh.... you don't read Kana and LW's posts? :)



hahaha....you know us so well.

I was just about to type that but decided to read the rest of the thread first. lol

And yup, he stops when the "feeling" goes away. He says that's why I feed him such good meals....to fill him up so he'll fall asleep instead.

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 8:16:26 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

To be honest, I don't think it would have been all that different for me. I still would have been a submissive personality. I still would have submitted to my husband. I still would have believed what I believe now.

I guess I could see how you are glad it is different for a male sub, but personally for me, no it would have been very similar to what I have now.



200 years ago women for the most part were the property of their husbands and before that, their family, and unlike today, had little power or legal protection, church and state made women into their husband's vassals.


I think Master and I would absolutely love for this to actually be true today for us. Yes today we have a choice as women. Personally for me though I always think about how it used to be for my grandparents and great grandparents and how I wished it was still that way today for me.




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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/9/2013 9:27:01 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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Yes, and you are free to do as you like in your relationships - note the word 'relationship.' You can do whatever you like with someone with whom you have history. What I was talking about are situations where people have unreasonable expectations of people they have no history with.

Meh.

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/10/2013 3:43:15 PM   
Charles6682


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Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline
I do realize that Collarme/Collarchat is a very valuable asset to this community and to me a well.I have had to walk this path of submission alone for the most part.I know I can't do this alone and that I do need some outside help on this.Thats why I have been on this website for years now.Still,I do agree that it would be in my best interest to start meeting some descent people in my local community.I have already recieved some emails from some people in my local community inviting me to some of the local events in this area.Not all of it is announced on Collarchat or Fetlife either.The person I talked with said they are apart of a group that seeks to root out the fakes and only have serious people there.That sounds like a good start for me.Along with the many other events that go on in my local area.I do Thank everyone for their advice and for putting up with my ranting at times.I guess its my way of just getting things off my chest,so to speak.I don't want to argue with a community that I am trying so hard to be apart of.I would rather just seek friendships and try to get along with people.I know thats clearly not possible with everyone in this community but I have to start somewhere.

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/10/2013 9:11:18 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
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From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline
Are there places in the world where consensual BDSM is perfectly legal with anti-discrimination laws?I know where I live,theres no law against BDSM,However,Florida is a "Right to Work" state and an employer can fire someone because of who they are.Theres no laws that prevent an employer for firing someone for reasons like that.

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 3:29:24 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I kind of like the Victorian times.

So much secret depravity and kink...hidden under a cloak of respectability. Simmering passions and hypocrisy.

I love the erotica of that time because they had to be very creative, and it sounded so intense, not free and breezy like today.


Unfortunately it was also the time of big business children prostitutes, ordinary prostitution, and what not under same cloak of 'decency'. Oh- and intense poverty.

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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 3:47:55 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Aaahhh I so agree on modern cars vs old ones. ^_^ Old cars had personality. New cars all look like Camry knock offs. =p haha

But I don't think "blurring the lines" would make life samey-samey. And I don't think you can fully and 100% blur the lines, anyway. What you can do, though, is make it okay for people with non-traditional personalities to be themselves. These people have always been here, just hidden from view. By allowing them out in the open, you INCREASE diversity, you don't reduce it.

I don't ever want to live in a world where I can't find a single burly dude with a beard, or a girly girl who likes makeup and skirts. =p I don't want to live in a world where we are all androgynous. But I think androgynous people, submissive men, dominant women, and everyone in between, have every right to exist out in the open.



As I see it, 'blurring the lines' assumes that there are lines to blur. But there aren't, just some very rigid gender roles. Once they get toned down or better still, thrown to the wind, you have ALL kinds of INDIVIDUALS who can really be be happy and function and contribute to society :-)

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 3:51:05 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I find it more disturbing that male submissives have a hard time finding acceptance within the BDSM Community,than male submissives finding acceptance in the "vanilla community".

I have been an open male submissive for a few years now.I must say,I've never really had too much of a problem being open out in society.The people who do know are surprised at first,but then move on.Some people find it very interesting.I've had emails from people all over the world saying how lucky I am.I have over 2500 "likes" on my facebook page.So overall in general society,I really haven't had too much of a problem.What I finding most disturbing is the lack of acceptance in the BDSM community that male subs gets.



I can nod to that. In my circles male subs felt squeezed by male doms and in the end we made separate evening for femdom/malesub only. It was great fun, and ended up changing the attitudes over time. The male doms also tended to have a somewhat patronizing attitude to femdoms, that changed too.

(in reply to Charles6682)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 3:53:45 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I find it more disturbing that male submissives have a hard time finding acceptance within the BDSM Community,than male submissives finding acceptance in the "vanilla community".

I have been an open male submissive for a few years now.I must say,I've never really had too much of a problem being open out in society.The people who do know are surprised at first,but then move on.Some people find it very interesting.I've had emails from people all over the world saying how lucky I am.I have over 2500 "likes" on my facebook page.So overall in general society,I really haven't had too much of a problem.What I finding most disturbing is the lack of acceptance in the BDSM community that male subs gets.



I have been active in the BDSM community since '94 and I can tell you this is not my experience at all. In-fact that is the total opposite of my experience. Where are YOU seeing this within the BDSM community?

I do think there is a difference between being accepted for being a submissive male and being a match for someone.

I don't mean to sound harsh but perhaps saying you aren't being accepted because you are a submissive male is your cope out instead of looking within yourself and finding and addressing the real problem of why you haven't found a personal match.





Now, that is truly patronizing, telling him that he wasn't experiencing what he was experiencing! Maybe a case in point?

Anyway, as I said in a previous mail, I have seen the same tendencies.

(in reply to TheLilSquaw)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 3:59:38 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Can you define the "discrimination"? Are you seeing community events where male subs are not permitted entry? (With the exception of sigs, of course, that are orientation and/or role specific.) Have you specifically been barred from events that are open to everyone that has good standing with the group or club? Have you been vetted with any group that has excluded you from their activities?



To help a bit out here, what I have seen, clearly, is an attitude where subs where ridiculed in various ways, never so you can have a case on it, but enough to make subs in that organization I was in uncomfortable as a whole, and not able to play or feeling uncomfortable doing it. That is what people say, and that is what we listened to and took seriously.

Femdoms had a problem with patronizing attitudes from male doms, again not in an openly hostile way, and in many cases probably not even on purpose, but darn irritating all the same. Those problems were recognized and worked with and they got a lot better.


(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 4:07:00 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682



.Now,I realize there are parts in the World where many people do not have this option at all.I talked to one male sub from a country where women aren't even allowed to drive.Clearly,I have to imagine its impossible to come out open without hassles.




True, in a lot of places things haven't changed a lot :-((

The mental and social attitudes are to me, the most important things that give us freedom.

(in reply to Charles6682)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 4:09:11 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Just from some of the comments from some of the people right here in this thread have even said that male subs have a hard time finding acceptance in the general community.Either a sub like me keeps my mouth shut and just go with the flow or I can speak my mind and be blacklisted as some "do me" sub or someone who has no clue about who a submissive is.That somehow I don't have a clue about this lifestyle or community.That someone I don't know who I am.Don't think I'm just going to sit by quietly and let people think they can speak for me.


I have wondered at some of the answers you got..

(in reply to Charles6682)
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RE: Have times changed for the better for BDSM? - 3/11/2013 4:11:49 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

It's pretty typical around here.

It's important to realize that not all communities are the same. You can talk about your own and say "that doesn't happen where I live" but it may happen all the time where someone else lives.

I haven't been to any events outside the midwest (yet), but the thing here seems to be who you know and what you do for certain people. You can get away with all sorts of bad behavior as long as you suck up to the right people.

And I'm not just talking about outsiders looking in, if you've followed my posts.

I'm talking about men who participated, or tried to, and left because they themselves felt abused. Or they felt that there were unnecessary and unsafe expectations put on them.

A lot of things don't bother me; my former was a wonderfully Sadistic guy.
What bothers me, though, is the hypocrisy.



You said it.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 80
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