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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 6:13:05 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Didn't Churchill say something along these lines
I can paraphrase it(thereby not doing Churchill justice....lol)but I can't quote it right now(juggling too many balls)
Someone else will come along and pickup the ball(hi Tazzy....lol)

Is this it?

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374518

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 6:15:09 PM

slvemike4u

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Because we really shouldn't count on Tazzy for everything

Churchill's quote :

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 6:23:41 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Didn't Churchill say something along these lines
I can paraphrase it(thereby not doing Churchill justice....lol)but I can't quote it right now(juggling too many balls)
Someone else will come along and pickup the ball(hi Tazzy....lol)

Is this it?

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374518

Don't you just hate when quotes long attributed to one person are than correctly attributed to another ?
What struck me as amusing was seeing all of those French versions,wherein this or that Frenchman was said to have said this or that version of the quote.Many of them substituting "head"for "brain"
Seeing as a number of these come from the time of the French revolution,"want of head" takes on a whole new meaning......lol.

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Post #: 163

RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 6:34:45 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Because we really shouldn't count on Tazzy for everything

Churchill's quote :

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

There is no proof Churchill ever said this. I think its one of those myths found on the net.

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Post #: 164

RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 7:22:30 PM

slvemike4u

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See previous posts Polite......by the way I have been,for the last two months working my way thru William Manchester's Churchill trilogy....what an amazing life.

p.s quite a piece of work by Manchester too(with a lot of help on the last volume of course)

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 7:25:06 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Because we really shouldn't count on Tazzy for everything

Churchill's quote :

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

There is no proof Churchill ever said this. I think its one of those myths found on the net.

I never had attribution on this but I've heard the quote as "If you're not a Democrat in your 20's you have no heart, if you're not a Republican in your 40's you have no brain"....

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 7:52:04 PM

elelohesterling

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I think this comes more from the progress of views. What is considered progressive today, will be considered conservative in 20-40 years. I know my Mother and Father talk about poltics all the time and say that they were democrats when younger, but they tend to vote republican today because the GOP stands for many of the same things the Dems did back in the day.

*Shrug* Just my

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Because we really shouldn't count on Tazzy for everything

Churchill's quote :

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

There is no proof Churchill ever said this. I think its one of those myths found on the net.

I never had attribution on this but I've heard the quote as "If you're not a Democrat in your 20's you have no heart, if you're not a Republican in your 40's you have no brain"....

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 8:02:59 PM

kdsub

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I am generalizing of course but I believe most children and young adults would call themselves liberal until they become wage earners with families. Then with the pressure of finances and family they become staunch conservatives. Then when retirement comes and they need to reap the benefits of social security they become liberal again.

Butch

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 8:23:55 PM

erieangel

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That's cute. Reminds me of the time we found out my brother-in-law was gay.

The nearly the entire family was at my in-law's, include my father-in-law's 86 year old mother. The phone rings and she answers it. "Albert," she calls, into the other room, "it's your boyfriend."

Al is red faced when he comes into the kitchen to get the phone. After a brief conversation with his boy friend, he comes out to everybody. His grandmother says "I know". His mom says "No? Really?" I laughed and gave my husband punch in the arm because he'd always somewhat jealous of the friendly relationship Al and I had since the moment we met. It took another 20 years before Al's oldest brother and sister-in-law knew, but his mother dropped hints about it all that time.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/16/2013 8:24:27 PM

TwoHeartsBeatOne

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Marriage may be wrong... just in principle, but if society thinks it should be a legal practice, then in America, that means we ALL get to do what is legal. Or, should.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 9:11:49 AM

kdsub

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quote:

As another openly gay male, I'd like to point out a few views from my side

I am sorry that I missed your post…I did not mean to ignore you. I agree with everything you have said so please don’t think I am against your views.

I started out and want to continue with my main point. That is if the rights of same sex unions are equal to heterosexual marriages does it really make a difference if a same sex marriage is called a union? My contention all along was to try and represent the feelings and reasoning of those that are opposed to a union being called a marriage.

They are not my personal views but as a semi conservative and talking to those in that group , my previous posts represent their reasoning and the objection to unions being called marriages.

Yes to me and you they are unreasonable and what difference should it make to them…But it does and because it does is it worth denying equal rights over wording? If we can get the rights equal is this not the most important now?… And is a fight over wording worth it if it may hold back progress on the issue at this time?

I understand dcnovice and his posts and his supporters objections… And in a perfect world he is absolutely correct… but that is not the world we live in.

Butch

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 9:38:30 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I am generalizing of course but I believe most children and young adults would call themselves liberal until they become wage earners with families. Then with the pressure of finances and family they become staunch conservatives. Then when retirement comes and they need to reap the benefits of social security they become liberal again.

Perhaps. My political views, however, have not changed based upon my financial position. In the end, predicting the future is always crystal ball stuff so I'm content to let this play out as it does. I don't actually think it matters much anyway. Stuff like the more sane parts of the Tea Party & Occupy matter much more to me.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 9:48:35 AM

Powergamz1

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The notion that no minority should be allowed to have equal rights until all minorities of any kind can do anything they want, is a classic example of the ad absurdum logical fallacy.

It is like sayiing that no military unit should fire a shot until the enemy agrees to surrender unconditionally.

Real life doesn't work that way.

It does work imperfectly and incrementally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

See, there's my beef in a nutshell. If gays (or fucking anybody) took the position that people should have a right to form whatever kind of life-union they want, be it straight, gay, polygamous, or polyandrous, without interference from some meddling nanny government, I would support them 100%. But that's not what gay marriage is about.

The push for gay marriage stakes out a position that is every bit as selfish and self-interested as the opposition, and I have no time for either of them. Granted, gays don't want to make hetero marriage illegal. But they don't seem to have a quibble with laws that push poly unions under the bus. So I fail to see any moral high ground there.

You raise a good point, Kirata. I think every movement for social change has had to wrestle with the question of focus. Do you target a specific change to seek--school desegregation, votes for women, same-sex marriage, what have you--even if that means other folks' issues go unaddressed? Was it "selfish" of the Civil Rights movement to focus on the plight of African Americans without addressing, say, the poverty and suffering of Native Americans? Or should we be fighting the broadest fights possible? And to what extent to do you factor in the hard realities of "the art of the possible"? The gay community wrestles with that in terms of ENDA. Do you strive to pass what you can get, even if that means leaving out "gender identity"? Or do you wait till you can get the whole loaf? I'm not sure what the answers are, to be honest.

In terms of poly unions, I can't help noting that folks have had ages to voice their concern about the injustice of mono-only matrimony. But I honestly don't recall hearing anyone do so until gay marriage became a possibility.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 3/17/2013 9:49:01 AM >

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 9:57:52 AM

Powergamz1

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And I would add the question that I've been asking for a long time (without answer)

'Where does God ever say a word about churches requiring a government issued *license* to marry Adam and Eve, or anyone else?'

Incontrovertible fact is that the Church didn't give a damn about marriage licenses until they got into the business of charging money for indulgences, fragments of the 'true cross', various body parts of Jesus... and blessings for birth, death, virginity, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Marriage is a civil contract. Period
A contract is an agreement between 2 or more consenting adults who are of sound mind.
Churches have no business defining who may or may not enter into a contract except to their own members.

To those who think "God" has anything to do with marriage, I have two questions.
If it is not a civil contract, why does it NOT require a clergyman? A justice of peace and/or notary can perform marriage ceremonies in most locations.
If it is NOT a civil contract and is indeed some religious thing why does it require a judge, not a clergyman, to dissolve one?

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 10:59:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And I would add the question that I've been asking for a long time (without answer)

'Where does God ever say a word about churches requiring a government issued *license* to marry Adam and Eve, or anyone else?'

Incontrovertible fact is that the Church didn't give a damn about marriage licenses until they got into the business of charging money for indulgences, fragments of the 'true cross', various body parts of Jesus... and blessings for birth, death, virginity, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Marriage is a civil contract. Period
A contract is an agreement between 2 or more consenting adults who are of sound mind.
Churches have no business defining who may or may not enter into a contract except to their own members.

To those who think "God" has anything to do with marriage, I have two questions.
If it is not a civil contract, why does it NOT require a clergyman? A justice of peace and/or notary can perform marriage ceremonies in most locations.
If it is NOT a civil contract and is indeed some religious thing why does it require a judge, not a clergyman, to dissolve one?

"Marriage" is nothing but the church and state attempting to regulate and control what men and women were doing for all time. Not that men and men or women and women do not also form close relationships.

But now it reached the point where "marriage" is seen as a "right" that needs to be further regulated.

But if all marriages were declared null and void, and of no meaning, just how would this affect your relationship with others?

For myself, it would not change one thing with the woman who lives with me and which I share 4 daughters with. We have been together long enough to be grandparents, and the church and the state have little say in our relationship.

But it appears to have any number are quite well trained to believe a government issued license is all that one needs for conjugal happiness.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 11:15:00 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
But it appears to have any number are quite well trained to believe a government issued license is all that one needs for conjugal happiness.

Yeah, I'm not real big on the licensing part. But I do think having some clue about the business side of marriage (eg: what happens in a divorce) is probably wise.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 11:18:57 AM

Lucylastic

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lawyers will never let that happen, birth, death, divorce, , etc,

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 2:30:07 PM

dcnovice

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FR

Conservative author Selwyn Duke takes Senator Portman to task in a 3.17.13 post at the American Thinker blog.

He begins:

In another case in the annals of conservative "adaptation" to yesterday's liberal innovation, Ohio Republican senator Rob Portman has just announced that he now supports faux marriage. The change was motivated, he said, by his son having come out to him and his wife as a homosexual.

Well, it's a good thing his son didn't announce that he was involved in bestiality.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/03/senator_portmans_homosexual_descent.html#.UUYs83Sfd28.facebook#ixzz2NpsYVAOt

Nope, no bigotry there.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 3:01:37 PM

Winterapple

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I give Portman credit for coming forth publicly in favor of marriage
equality. Would he have had it not been for his son? Probably not
but that's true of many people. The issue had to be personalized for
him. He says when he was vetted by the Romney campaign for veep
he disclosed about his son, not sure if he told them his views on
marriage or if he had decided at that point to come out in favor
of the issue. The Romney camp says it had nothing to do with him
being passed over for Ryan. By taking this public stance he may
have ruined his chances nationally and he may have put his Senate
seat in some danger to.

It's funny how some of the anti equality bile sounds similiar
to the some of the stuff that was said about giving women
the vote. There were those that said then that giving women
the vote would lead to dogs and horses voting and that by
giving women the vote, the vote would be rendered meaningless.

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RE: Gay Marriage is WRONG - 3/17/2013 5:28:23 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

It's funny how some of the anti equality bile sounds similiar
to the some of the stuff that was said about giving women
the vote.

Are you implying theat the Republican party is 100 years out of touch?

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