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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 10:45:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

This is the usual left-wing political posturing as usual. They have a budget crisis to deal with, but they have to start thinking of the next campaign, so lets talk minimum wage.

Would probably be better help for the Republicans who can't figure out why they fail to attract votes from low wage earners.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 10:46:46 AM   
FrostedFlake


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The dark blue indicates the minimum wage in then current Dollars. The light blue indicates the minimum wage in 2009 dollars.

Summary : It is not your imagination. Or my opinion. The REAL minimum wage has been dropping all of your life.

Here is my opinion : Who here knows the names George Pullman and Clarence Darrow? If you don't know these names, you don't know why we have a minimum wage.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 10:57:15 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
Why is the minimum wage such a big deal, as the most common excuse is it will destory business when the excutives of that same business reward themselves with millions of dollars in bonus and such.

Some will wave this off as a "slippery slope" fallacy, but if you raise the minimum wage, what happens to all those who are making wages that used to be higher than the minimum wage? Obviously, their wage rate will also rise to the minimum wage, right? Or, will it rise by the same amount the minimum wage rose? If I'm making $10.25/hr. ($3+min.) and they raise the minimum wage to $10.25, will my wage change to $13.25, or will it remain at $10.25? Obviously, the person working longer than those that typically get minimum wage will feel they, too, deserve a wage that is higher. Unions love minimum wage hikes. It's pretty much a guarantee that they'll be able to get wage increases the next time negotiations are opened.
So, raising the minimum wage, while it may sound like a good thing, ends up raising pretty much every hourly-paid worker's pay rate, regardless of any increase in productivity or economic impact.

Oh I do see a ripple effect in the wages, but some Corperate Executives are making more in less then a day then the highest wage earning in the same company in a year. And the Corperation does the money for the Excutive but not the worker.


That problem isn't going to be solved by raising the minimum wage. It's not like the CEO is going to give up pay so the hourly's have a bigger pool to split. The increased wages will be tied back into the cost of the product so you and I can pay for it. So, for all those people who didn't get a pay increase, as Vincent contends, they get to see their real wages drop because of the increased cost of goods.

What do you consider a "living wage?" Why don't we raise the minimum wage to the level of a "living wage?"

_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Help for the truly needy
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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:00:41 AM   
breagha


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First i have to say to Level... the title of this thread reads like a band name... love it

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

The best way would be for the federal government to force the states to institute a minimum wage based on a cost of living index for that state. Ask a federal employee how their wages are calculated. They already do it. An FBI agent in MI at the same pay grade as one in MA makes different pay based on the relative cost of living.


i couldn't agree more with this statement. At some point i believe that cost of living has to be factored into pay rate. Where i live i don't know anyone that could be totally self sufficient on 7.25 an hour. Before taxes are taken out that would be 1160 a month ( based on a 40 hour work week, 4 weeks in a month ). The last apartment i had was 625 a month. that would have left me with 535 to pay day care, insurance, electric bill, groceries, and gas to get to and from work. There are other expenses that come up too ( things my child needs, a phone bill etc ). i honestly don't know that i could have done it on minimum wage.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:17:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

65.2% of all hourly paid workers 16 years or older getting paid at or below the minimum wage have never been married. 57.4% work less than 35 hours/week. Have we really had such an amazing productivity increase in the no/low-skill labor force?

As I said, it is not about productivity . . . it is about social justice and wage disparity. And what does being married have to do with anything? Aren't most marriages two wage earner households of necessity? Or are we talking about those cursed single mothers who sinned? Eww . . . let them be damned. They brought it on themselves after all.
Probably missing from the statistics are those being paid LESS than MW off the books.


The never being married part rebuts the picture oft painted of a family of 4 "living" on Dad's minimum wage job. It's kinda tough for the BLS to include people getting paid off the books in any of their stats, including at or below minimum wage. And, the only reason one needs more than one wage earner in a family is if that family wants a better life than one wage earner can provide. While having two wage earners isn't necessarily a guarantor of a particular lifestyle, it's a choice that is made by the parents.

quote:

quote:

And, yes, we'll be talking about manufacturing. A guy getting paid 3x the minimum wage is generally going to consider that he is being paid more for increased skills, experience, talent, etc. Raising the labor rate for the low/no skill work force makes that rate difference smaller, demeaning the talent, experience, and or skills that the low/no skill worker doesn't have. What happens? All hourly wage rates will eventually rise. So, yeah, it will get to manufacturing, too.

Yeh, right! A worker making $21.75 an hour will feel treatened if the MW goes to $10/hour? People compare wages within industries and at comparable status. They don't look downward and compare themselves to a burger flipper. What nonsense.
The problem is that Labor is part of the global free market which like all markets requires a minimum of regulation. If Burger King can have a chinese laborer flip the burgers and ship them hot for just in time service to Ohio then more power to them. But they can't. So, they howl when government tries to regulate minimum wages. They throw a tantrum because they can have slave labor abroad but not locally.


"Slave" labor? You don't *have* to work for a guy that only offers a low wage. Go get a higher paying job. What? You can't? Why not? Because you don't merit the higher pay? Um, exactly.


_____________________________

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
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  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:22:05 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

And, yes, we'll be talking about manufacturing. A guy getting paid 3x the minimum wage is generally going to consider that he is being paid more for increased skills, experience, talent, etc. Raising the labor rate for the low/no skill work force makes that rate difference smaller, demeaning the talent, experience, and or skills that the low/no skill worker doesn't have. What happens? All hourly wage rates will eventually rise. So, yeah, it will get to manufacturing, too.


Here is a question for you. since you brought up the topic.

How many low/no skill jobs are truly left?

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:23:58 AM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
Why is the minimum wage such a big deal, as the most common excuse is it will destory business when the excutives of that same business reward themselves with millions of dollars in bonus and such.

Some will wave this off as a "slippery slope" fallacy, but if you raise the minimum wage, what happens to all those who are making wages that used to be higher than the minimum wage? Obviously, their wage rate will also rise to the minimum wage, right? Or, will it rise by the same amount the minimum wage rose? If I'm making $10.25/hr. ($3+min.) and they raise the minimum wage to $10.25, will my wage change to $13.25, or will it remain at $10.25? Obviously, the person working longer than those that typically get minimum wage will feel they, too, deserve a wage that is higher. Unions love minimum wage hikes. It's pretty much a guarantee that they'll be able to get wage increases the next time negotiations are opened.
So, raising the minimum wage, while it may sound like a good thing, ends up raising pretty much every hourly-paid worker's pay rate, regardless of any increase in productivity or economic impact.

Oh I do see a ripple effect in the wages, but some Corperate Executives are making more in less then a day then the highest wage earning in the same company in a year. And the Corperation does the money for the Excutive but not the worker.


That problem isn't going to be solved by raising the minimum wage. It's not like the CEO is going to give up pay so the hourly's have a bigger pool to split. The increased wages will be tied back into the cost of the product so you and I can pay for it. So, for all those people who didn't get a pay increase, as Vincent contends, they get to see their real wages drop because of the increased cost of goods.

What do you consider a "living wage?" Why don't we raise the minimum wage to the level of a "living wage?"


How about including things like inflation and cost of living. Oh here is a little something on those CEO and their earnings.
Keep in mind that the current rate of inflation is about 2%.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/wall-street-ceos-bonuses-perks-government-jobs-151843067.html

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:32:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

And, yes, we'll be talking about manufacturing. A guy getting paid 3x the minimum wage is generally going to consider that he is being paid more for increased skills, experience, talent, etc. Raising the labor rate for the low/no skill work force makes that rate difference smaller, demeaning the talent, experience, and or skills that the low/no skill worker doesn't have. What happens? All hourly wage rates will eventually rise. So, yeah, it will get to manufacturing, too.

Here is a question for you. since you brought up the topic.
How many low/no skill jobs are truly left?


8. lol

Almost every entry level job that hires the 16-19 year olds is a low/no skill job. Most of those jobs are the ones you learn the skills on the job. And, then, it also helps you learn more skills so that your labor is actually worth more, meriting (and usually commanding) a higher pay rate.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:42:49 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Almost every entry level job that hires the 16-19 year olds is a low/no skill job


Ah, thats what I thought you meant. But, is it?

Most entry level jobs I had growing up were truly just manual labor. Now, not so much. Electronics and computers play a big part now. Thats not no skill, or even low skill anymore. order entry is now computerized. if you dont know how to operate a computer, that person is pretty much at a hanicap for most low paying jobs to start off with. lets face it, those no/low skill jobs of yesteryear are gone, unless you are digging ditches and dont have to worry about the grade, the rise, ect ect.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:45:09 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

According to the BLS (one of my responses pulled from a different thread):
    quote:

    The "below minimum wage" people will get raises, too. Whether or not it's the same raise or the same % would have to be seen later, but they'll get an increase. If you want to simply talk about those who get minimum wage, it was 2.1% of all hourly paid workers 16 years old or older (below min % is 2.6%; 4.7% of all hourly paid workers are at or below minimum wage). 24.1% of all hourly paid workers 16 years old or older that get paid at or below the minimum wage fall in the 16-19 age category. 65.2% of all hourly paid workers 16 years or older getting paid at or below the minimum wage have never been married. 57.4% work less than 35 hours/week. Have we really had such an amazing productivity increase in the no/low-skill labor force?





I have no idea where the BLS got their information, but I can assure you that it is wrong. Do you honestly believe that those who work in fast food joints, restaurants, retail and all the business where employees are paid less than $7.25 because they make tips is only 2.1% of the population of this country? Really?

Minimum wage for tipped employees has not changed in TWENTY YEARS. It's $2.13 an hour, although some states do have higher minimum wages for these employees.

A minimum of $7.25 an hour simply is not an income someone could be wholly self sufficient on, period. Even those companies who think they are doing people a favor by paying them $8.00 an hour (above minimum wage) are bullshit. Out of that minimum wage, there are taxes taken out. Since you want to go for the whole "unmarried" group, and I will even grant you the unlikely possibility they are all childless, they have withholding of around 20%. So $8.00 an hour at 40 hours a week is $320 a week, minus $64 leaving them with $256 a week. Taking an average of the five lowest rents (which are all in east bumblefuck), we have rent for a one bedroom of $522 a month. Now with a net income of $13, 312.00 per year, or $1109.33 per month, that leaves this person with $587.33 per month. Gas is what? Almost four bucks a gallon? We will take an economy car with an 11 gallon tank, so that is a budget of about $40 a week for one tank of gas (saying that is all the person can use). So $160 from $587.33 is $427.33. Oh wait, that car needs to be insured, and since your "study" implies that these are all young people, they pay higher insurance rates. Let's say their insurance, basic, liability only, costs them $65 a month, which is probably very low. Ok, so $427.33 minus $65 is $362.33. Now, most young people only have cell phones these days, but they are going to want a good plan. I'll give them Virgin Mobile unlimited for $55 a month. Left with $307.33. They are living in an apartment, without washer and dryer, so their electric is going to average about $38.33 per month (more in summer because of AC, which yes they are going to us). $269.00 left. Don't have a washer and dryer at home, and because you are working everyday, you need to allow $15.00 a week or $60.00 a month for a laundromat (no they can't do wash at mom's). $269.00 minus $60 leaves our "above" minimum wage worker with $209.00 for the month. Well, this person is also going to eat healthy, so that's going to cost them $50.00 (again being generous with a low amount) in groceries every week, since they don't live on Ramon Noodles. Gee, that's $200 bucks a month, and now our "above" minimum wage, unmarried, young employee is left with $9.00. But wait! His company generously offers health insurance at the very competitive co-pay rate of $35.00 per week. Our worker here is smart enough to know how important that health insurance is, so they certainly don't opt out of it (and with the new laws, they really can't get a better policy). Our young, unmarried, "above" minimum wage worker just got themselves a monthly deficit of $131.00 per month. Where shall we try to come up with that money? Can't take it from rent or car insurance, those are inflexible rates. Maybe they can wear something a couple times a week before washing it and save $15.00 a month. Oops, still need another $116.00 from somewhere. It really can't come from the electric bill, since they are already sitting in the dark half the time, so what's left? Oh, the groceries! Ok, so we take the remaining $116.00 from the grocery money and now we only have $21.00 per week for groceries. Guess we are living on Ramon Noodles after all. Good thing we have that health insurance, since that is a very unhealthy diet and we are going to have some health issues from that.

Now, you might want to look at the above paragraph. Notice this person doesn't have cable television (or whatever else). I know where I live, an antennae isn't going to get me even basic channels because that only works in flatlands. No internet either, and they can't go to a Starbucks or something to use their free internet, because there is no money for a cup of coffee a couple of times a week. That's ok, they can use their phone to access their internet, although they certainly can't send out resumes for a better job. Even though they have health insurance, they can't afford the $10 co-pay for doctors or prescriptions, so hopefully they don't get sick. If anything goes wrong with their car, they are seriously screwed because they can't get to work. Public transportation doesn't really exist outside major cities in this country.

So really, do you honestly think that the current minimum wage is a good thing?

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:50:37 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

And, the only reason one needs more than one wage earner in a family is if that family wants a better life than one wage earner can provide. While having two wage earners isn't necessarily a guarantor of a particular lifestyle, it's a choice that is made by the parents.


What planet do you live on? Two wage earners isn't a choice. My son and his girlfriend (ok, unmarried, but regardless) have a child and both have to work to be able to pay rent.



quote:

You don't *have* to work for a guy that only offers a low wage. Go get a higher paying job. What? You can't? Why not? Because you don't merit the higher pay? Um, exactly.



In the current economy, people are taking low wage jobs because they need a job. NOW. They don't have the luxury of waiting for a "better" opportunity because bills will remain unpaid, rent overdue and they will be out on the street.

Years ago, high schools used to offer the option of students attending VoTech. It was for those kids not destined to attend college, so that they still had a trade to make a living. Now, getting into VoTech is like applying for college, and those kids who aren't college material are often not accepted. So they graduate from high school with barely the skills to work at a fast food joint.

You really seem to be clueless as to how real life works.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:51:46 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

And, yes, we'll be talking about manufacturing. A guy getting paid 3x the minimum wage is generally going to consider that he is being paid more for increased skills, experience, talent, etc. Raising the labor rate for the low/no skill work force makes that rate difference smaller, demeaning the talent, experience, and or skills that the low/no skill worker doesn't have. What happens? All hourly wage rates will eventually rise. So, yeah, it will get to manufacturing, too.

Here is a question for you. since you brought up the topic.
How many low/no skill jobs are truly left?


8. lol

Almost every entry level job that hires the 16-19 year olds is a low/no skill job. Most of those jobs are the ones you learn the skills on the job. And, then, it also helps you learn more skills so that your labor is actually worth more, meriting (and usually commanding) a higher pay rate.



Really? What skills does a kid learn working at the mall or the local fast food joint?

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:52:59 AM   
bossman777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

govt. has a right to set a floor below which the compensation for labor...shall not go.


Governments don't have rights. People do. Governments have powers and this is one power the federal government was never given by the people in the Constitution. But, I digress.

I *did* study economics MrRodgers, it was my minor, and one thing you learn is that the minimum wage is boneheaded stupid--but it appeals to the massess because it allows them to vote for a raise instead of improving their skill set. And it allows politicians to buy votes by using other people's money.

Econ 101 teaches you can never artificially set the price of anything without causing shortages or oversupply.

Not a single person on this thread has taken my invitation to analyze the minimum wage if we raised it to $100 an hour... Do that and you will begin understand why it's stupid. What would happen? The same thing that happens if you set it too high at $7 or $12 per hour or (pick a number), just not as obviously: labor that is not worth the mandated rate does not get done. That means fewer jobs and less gets produced. Which is why unemployment among teens and especially blacks has gone up every single time the minimum wage has been raised.

Think it through. Raise the minimum wage to $100 today. What would happen: all laborers not worth that amount would get laid off. Very few will pay that much to sack their groceries; they'll do it themselves first.

Prices are the result of competing forces, and no man or group of men are smart enough to divine what some thing or someone's time is worth for one day or one job, much less for years and all jobs. Free markets are the only way ever devised to quickly and efficiently 'find' the right value for a thing.

And for those who want to talk equity and fairness, answer me this: What is more selfish, to want the price of wheat high or low?


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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 11:54:38 AM   
papassion


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Its all relative. If the miimum wages goes up, prices go up at the businesses to pay for the increased wages. You get more wages, it cost more to live. Back to square one! from that chart, in 1960, the minimum was 1.00/hr.. But a new Chevrolet only cost 2,600.00.

And who grabbed your ass and said you MUST work for minimum wage? Even a slow retard has heard education and/or learning needed skills is the way to a good life. Get your ass out of the bar, go to school or get a skill that demands more pay. Oh, I see, you just think it should be handed to you.

Everybody seems to know that the cost of living in, say, Tennesse is lower than the cost of living in new york. Why is that? Whos fault is that? Right! They get more PAY in New York, so everything cost more. Raise the minimum and prices go up.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:02:14 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Everybody seems to know that the cost of living in, say, Tennesse is lower than the cost of living in new york. Why is that? Whos fault is that? Right! They get more PAY in New York, so everything cost more. Raise the minimum and prices go up.


Its a real shame you believe that.

NY costs more because they can demand the prices. Even to park costs more in huge cities as opposed to smaller towns. You really need to get out more.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:02:20 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bossman777


Not a single person on this thread has taken my invitation to analyze the minimum wage if we raised it to $100 an hour... Do that and you will begin understand why it's stupid. What would happen? The same thing that happens if you set it too high at $7 or $12 per hour or (pick a number), just not as obviously: labor that is not worth the mandated rate does not get done. That means fewer jobs and less gets produced. Which is why unemployment among teens and especially blacks has gone up every single time the minimum wage has been raised.




Nobody has responded to your invitation because its simply Bloody stupid !.talk about kicking the arse out of a thread.
Reductio ad absurdum

not worth even taking the piss out of
But then theres a lot of that in this thread.
given that peope in colleges and Universities everywhere are out there with tens of thousands in student debt, having HAD the training, but unable to get into their "chosen line" EXACTLY earning minimum wage, and workign more than two jobs and STILL unable to afford to barely get thru the month. STILL on welfare/TANF or whatever, even in canada and without doubt in the UK.
Bloody shortsighted people blaming low income workers , and ignoring the raping from above.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/21/2013 12:06:35 PM >


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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:09:07 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/03/18/elizabeth-warren-minimum-wage_n_2900984.html

Heh... Well I'm obviously in favor of fixing minimum wage since I'm pretty sick & tired of subsiding the payroll of major corporations. Even more urgently it's sort of mandatory if we want to fix our economy.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:09:40 PM   
jlf1961


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I am sure it has been said already, but how about we pay congressmen minimum wage?

Some of the arguments against minimum wage brings to mind "Sixteen tons"

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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:10:40 PM   
Powergamz1


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Not a single person on this thread has taken my invitation to analyze the minimum wage if we raised it to $100 an hour...

That's because it is an ad absurdum logical fallacy.

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(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/21/2013 12:11:38 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline
Look at self check out lanes... Raise the minum to $25/hr. and stores will just lay off the entire front end, and add 1 security guard. As for the rest of the store, you think it is hard finding someone to get now, just wait. Everything will be self service. Now this might not change at Nordstrom or Bloomingdales as they can easily sneak an extra $5 on to everything they sell. But try and do that on a gallon of milk or a tomato...Riots would ensue. I think the cashier is much happier at $12/hr than unemployed.

That is ultimately why they would only raise pennie or at most a $1. It is trivial. It make a bunch of limosine liberals feel as if they fought the good fight, yet the poor stay poor and the disruption to the economy is minimal.

(in reply to bossman777)
Profile   Post #: 40
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