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RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 8:58:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Tazz it is very easy to blame business as a whole. It is a nebulous non-entity. However, if you think the gov has your best interests in mind when they write this crap you are blind. What is crippling the middle class? How about the fact they are not in control, even as voters, of their representatives. The power structure between the lobbyist and the politician and the mega-corps and the bureaucrats (look how many regulators used to work for the companies they now regulate....hmmm curious) is the reason none of this matters. Unless you see congress focusing on this corruption (which they never will, both sides get rich from it) this isn't going away soon


lol.. its cute how you view me as a polyanna

So what do we do? Do we wait till business fixes itself? Nope. They wont.

Do we wait till government fixes itself? Nope. That isnt going to work either.

Do we wait and vote the bastards out? Been waiting for that for a long time. That doesnt work.

So your solution is to sit back and wait.............. for?

quote:

So, you raise the minimum wage. Big deal. The big boys get a work around. You might even see them embrace it. They get a government subsidy, replace some employees with a machine etc. However, all of the smaller business, who don't have the wage disparities, and have the personal relationships with their employees get hosed. They are now less competitive against their bigger cousins. Hence you just eliminated their small competitors from them, how nice.


And you are all for the status quo.

quote:

Ultimately, you can change it on the consumer level. If you give a crap and are willing to pay the higher prices, you should look for locally made products using fair labor practices. Chances are you just aren't that dedicated like everyone else.


We are already paying higher and higher prices. And making less and less. So what is your solution? Do we wait to see if businesses are going to lower prices again?

quote:

As far as jobs and what I have been saying about wages. Well, despite the high unemployment rate, there are a number of job sectors in the US that have employee shortages and are offering exceptional pay. Most are in the skilled trades (diesel tech, mechanics, welders, etc) and technology fields (engineering type stuff). We are in a post-industrial society. Skilled labor is rule and not the exception. The focus should be getting people the right degrees and training for those jobs.


On a minimum wage job... uh huh.

quote:

Unskilled labor is not something that can pay when there is an abundance of people and limited job market. Hey but I get keep giving student loans to anyone for any reason. Its no big deal if they major in 14th century pottery or political science, they have a college degree, right? Meanwhile China and India are spitting out engineers etc in record numbers. I wonder how long it will be before they start 'outsourcing' crappy jobs to us. Maybe you will get your wish, a low unemployment number making crappy export junk.


Husband, wife, 2 kids. Both have to work to make ends meet. Raise the minimum so only one has too. There is a massive industry based on poverty. Bet you can figure it out if you try hard enough.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:03:24 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Getting to you Jeff and Tazz. I understand the wage disparity. I am not saying I agree with it. However, mandating higher wages won't fix it for everyone.

And your solution to this is "get a job?" -- or more specifically, "a skilled job"? Your feeling is that too many people are graduating with degrees in underwater basket weaving? I'm really trying to take this post seriously because I think you're trying to be serious. But I admit I'm struggling. This post looks like the post of someone living 20 years or more in the past. It doesn't appear well connected to the actualities of the labor market today.

Depending on who you want to believe a college education MIGHT be an investment with a 20 year long payback. That, of course, assumes some sort of magical recovery in the economy. It also skips an awful lot of side-costs associated with white collar degrees (such as increased wardrobe costs). It also includes "the 1%" which vastly skews the numbers.

In other words, college degrees aren't really a smart business investment nowadays even under the most optimistic of assumptions.




That is too broad of an assumption. While there may be an overall glut of college grads devaluing the overall value of a degree, it is critical we have those marketable job skills. I am not just stating 4 year degrees. There is probably a greater need today for 2 year degreed individuals even in the blue colar trades.

But ask yourself why aren't they a good investment? Our unrestrained lending system has allowed the university system to increase the cost of a degree at a rate higher than escalating healthcare costs. Again thank you government....... The training is necessary, the costs need to be restrained. Maybe we regulate the colleges and universities, and skip the wage talks. Current wages would go further if you stopped the pocketbook pillaging.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:11:54 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Fine Tazz...Let's assume you are so right.....what is your solution? Show where that very type of regulation has actually worked in the US (you know real research explaining the correlation). If it exists I am happy to read it and ponder it accordingly. Really this got the worst when we declared a war on poverty. Maybe the meddlers should have stayed out.

As far as you dismissing my complaints about corruption (in my mind the real reason for all of this). Saying it can't be done is will be our demise. Do you realize why some of the stuff FDR did worked? He rooted out corruption in a number of places. By breaking Tammany Hall in NYC (a fellow dem mind you) he was able to ensure that federal aid monies weren't completely soaked up by the corrupt. Without breaking the cycle of corruption, your are just engaging in wishful thinking.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:13:40 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline 		Taz, your posts are usually well thought out and referenced, but you are going off on a tangent with the minimum wage thing. You talk about what you would like to see and completely ignore reality and the economic facts of life. We are in a global market now. Whatever country will make the goods we buy at the best prices will do so. And win that market. FACT.

There are more unskilled people than there are low skill jobs. FACT

When you go shopping, do you look for the highest priced goods, even If you are told the higher prices will allow the employers to live a more pleasant lifestyle? Of course not and neither will anybody else. Walmart's success proves people want the lowest prices, and don't really care about the employees who make the product. (As unpleasant as that sounds)

The only way to solve a problem is looking at it honestly, with clear glasses, not rose colored glasses about how the world SHOULD work.

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:19:05 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Taz, your posts are usually well thought out and referenced, but you are going off on a tangent with the minimum wage thing


Considering that is the topic of this thread, shouldnt that be the main focus?

quote:

You talk about what you would like to see and completely ignore reality and the economic facts of life. We are in a global market now. Whatever country will make the goods we buy at the best prices will do so. And win that market. FACT.


I provided facts to people who were asking questions or making statements that were not true. if thats a tangent, than I am guilty.

quote:

There are more unskilled people than there are low skill jobs. FACT


How many low level executives, how many former business owners, how many college degreed people do we have out of work with no jobs or with a part time one?

quote:

When you go shopping, do you look for the highest priced goods, even If you are told the higher prices will allow the employers to live a more pleasant lifestyle?


More pleasant? How about just being able to afford to live. And you still cant see the benefits of a living wage, can you.

quote:

The only way to solve a problem is looking at it honestly, with clear glasses, not rose colored glasses about how the world SHOULD work.


I have yet to see anyone step up to the plate and say what WILL work.

So why dont you explain what WILL work, then explain just how long that will take, how many people it will hurt and how much it will cost us all while we are waiting for YOUR solutions.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:25:14 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
But ask yourself why aren't they a good investment? Our unrestrained lending system has allowed the university system to increase the cost of a degree at a rate higher than escalating healthcare costs. Again thank you government....... The training is necessary, the costs need to be restrained. Maybe we regulate the colleges and universities, and skip the wage talks. Current wages would go further if you stopped the pocketbook pillaging.

Again, I agree to a point. But I do not believe that the solution to everything is "get the government out of it". In point of fact, a reasonable solution seems to be something more akin to:

A) Stop the collusion between big business and big government.
B) Set them against each other in a checks & balances sort of way.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:31:06 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Again, I am not saying they have to get out. If you read me, I advocate more regulation for the collegiate system. I would love a checks and balance system. Not sure what that looks like in the end.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:31:46 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Fine Tazz...Let's assume you are so right.....what is your solution? Show where that very type of regulation has actually worked in the US (you know real research explaining the correlation). If it exists I am happy to read it and ponder it accordingly. Really this got the worst when we declared a war on poverty. Maybe the meddlers should have stayed out.

As far as you dismissing my complaints about corruption (in my mind the real reason for all of this). Saying it can't be done is will be our demise. Do you realize why some of the stuff FDR did worked? He rooted out corruption in a number of places. By breaking Tammany Hall in NYC (a fellow dem mind you) he was able to ensure that federal aid monies weren't completely soaked up by the corrupt. Without breaking the cycle of corruption, your are just engaging in wishful thinking.


No one "dismissed" you. I said that waiting for business or government to do what should be done on their own isnt working, has not worked, and never will work.

You dont see Nixon as having a deep hand in the problems with our health care?

You dont see every President having a field day with our businesses yet ignoring the people who make those businesses thrive?

This attitude that employees dont matter is part of the problem in this country.

There is no more company loyalty because companies forgot how to generate that loyalty.

There are massive issues, and massive corruption. Do we wait while we attempt to fix that corruption? How long will that take?

Im curious in asking... how much longer do the poor and middle class wait for others to "fix" the problems in ways you consider appropriate?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 9:47:09 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Hmm maybe it is time for that massive voting block to get off the partisan merry-go-round and just vote out the incumbants. That would break so much of the circle. They don't have to wait. But alas let's justify infinite whining.

You don't need to continue to "point out" the problems. I am aware of them. Pointing at problems is not an argument nor a solution.

I am aware of the issues surrounding my proposed fixes, but they are not insurmountable. Again, what is the real alternative?

Where am I defending Nixon? I am not stay on topic.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 10:02:18 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~

BENEFITS OF RAISING THE MW

Reducing Poverty
According to The Washington Post, 13.2% of all Americans in 2008 lived below the poverty level. Those people directly benefit from an increase in the minimum wage. When the wage is raised, millions of people working at or just above the minimum wage could find their pay rising by thousands of dollars a year, according to the Economic Policy Institute. For example, if people working 40 hours a week see a $1-per-hour increase in pay, they would gain $2,080 a year. An increase in the minimum wage particularly benefits women, as women are more likely than men to fill the lowest-wage jobs. Around 30% of people affected by a wage increase are parents, so their children also benefit from a wage increase, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

Economic Benefits
The extra money earned as a result of a minimum wage increase is funneled back into the economy. Recipients of the extra funds most likely spend their increased wages on food, child care, rent and some nonessential items, which helps local businesses and builds the local tax base. Higher wages also can reduce the need for government assistance. In the workplace, minimum wage increases can result in reduced absenteeism, less turnover and overall stronger morale in employees. According to the Economic Policy Institute, no evidence exists that teenagers or under-educated employees lose work as a result of a wage increase. In a multi-state study, economics professors at Princeton University found that employment rates actually increase when the minimum wage increases.

Tax Benefits
Minimum wage law works hand-in-hand with the Earned Income Tax Credit. The minimum wage serves as the EITC's "floor," or its gauge to measure the amount of benefits provided to low-income taxpayers. As the Tax Policy Center noted, when the minimum wage didn't change between 1997 and 2006, its actual value decreased by 20% because of inflation. During that period Congress expanded the EITC, but full-time minimum wage workers did not benefit from the expansion because their wages hadn't changed. The EITC expansions actually helped workers earning higher wages much more than those earning low wages. When the minimum wage increases, the EITC can better fulfill its role of supplementing earnings of low-income workers. SOURCE


(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 10:12:05 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I get all of that. I am not disputing the theory.... Everything you quoted is based on assumptions. I asking how it has actually panned out every time it is done? Has it had the impact that has been claimed..

If all of that is 100% accurate, why don't we ever discuss raising it by $5-6/hr or doubling it?

Btw your source is Ehow....not exactly the leading authority on labor laws and statistics.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 10:18:21 AM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
If all of that is 100% accurate, why don't we ever discuss raising it by $5-6/hr or doubling it?

I'd be VERY up for discussing both of those options. Right along with it you'd need to discuss the end of "free trade" of course. But I'm up for discussing that too. In point of fact I'm very in favor of discussing anything which sounds like it might actually close that wage gap we've have agreed is not simply horrific from a human rights standpoint but awful from the standpoint of wanting an economy that works.

Given that wage gap it's pretty obvious that America has completely stratified into the old capital vs. labor divide. There is a class war and those are the two classes. I know which side I'm on.

That means pretty much anything which big business thinks is a good thing I'm certain is a bad thing for me.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 10:25:57 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I am not sure if it is this thread or another, I do make a case against free trade.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 10:27:12 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Hmm maybe it is time for that massive voting block to get off the partisan merry-go-round and just vote out the incumbants. That would break so much of the circle. They don't have to wait. But alas let's justify infinite whining.

You don't need to continue to "point out" the problems. I am aware of them. Pointing at problems is not an argument nor a solution.

I am aware of the issues surrounding my proposed fixes, but they are not insurmountable. Again, what is the real alternative?

Where am I defending Nixon? I am not stay on topic.




I was pointing out that I am not as uninformed as some may want to believe.

As far as your proposed fixes, can you point that post out?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 2:12:09 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Again, I am not saying they have to get out. If you read me, I advocate more regulation for the collegiate system. I would love a checks and balance system. Not sure what that looks like in the end.

Well, one thing I've toyed with is simply mandating pay RATIO's. Other countries seem to manage with a 20:1 or so multiplier. I might be OK with saying something like:

A CEO may not be paid any more than 20 times the average of all non-executive employees in his business.

There... the CEO wants a 20 buck an hour raise? He's gonna need to bring up wages by $1/hr on the average within his business. Actually, if boards of directors were actually obeying the law that sort of thinking would already happen.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 3:22:35 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We don`t have a socialist government system, here.


You will probably never be hapy with our system,even with the most liberal of our reps.,it doesn`t seem to be enough....

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 5:48:23 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
We don`t have a socialist government system, here.

Agreed. Nor was I proposing "socialist" anything.

quote:

You will probably never be hapy with our system,even with the most liberal of our reps.,it doesn`t seem to be enough....

Sort of. What I'd say is when our economy is actually collapsing under the collective greed of a tiny percentage then yes, the government must step in. I will be happy when the economy is no longer collapsing.

Allow me to ask you... is there some reason that supply/demand should not apply to executives? If you were a majority shareholder in some corporation wouldn't YOU be asking some questions about the pay scales that are offered? I mean seriously, at those rates you could shop the entire rest of the world and hire pretty much anyone you wanted... and pay them 20x what they are currently being paid... or more. Why?

More to the point, do you have any thoughts about how to stop this business of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer? Or is it your thought that we just let it run its natural course and pick up the blood soaked pieces after the revolution?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Elizabeth Warren & the Minimum Wage - 3/22/2013 7:15:49 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

I get all of that. I am not disputing the theory.... Everything you quoted is based on assumptions. I asking how it has actually panned out every time it is done? Has it had the impact that has been claimed..

Doesn't really matter what you were asking. I wasn't paying attention to you. My post was FR which means it was addressed to all in general and not to anyone specifically despite what it says in the lower right hand corner. Thems the rules, yanno.

quote:

If all of that is 100% accurate, why don't we ever discuss raising it by $5-6/hr or doubling it?

But in order to avoid any accusation of being completely snarky let me repeat what I have said several times already in this thread:

The ME is like child labor laws an attempt to promote SOCIAL JUSTICE. It is an attempt to help workers at the bottom end of the scale and to protect the most vulnerable of our people. Workers who are predominantly women and maybe single mothers in low skilled jobs. If promoting social justice for low wage workers is of no interest to you then go on about economic effects and all that bullshit. The main point is that we need minimum wage laws and child labor laws because business management cannot be trusted. At all levels management will EXPLOIT labor. Is there any doubt about that?

We are three days shy of the 102 year anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. When are we gonna fucking learn the lesson about the need to protect workers?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/22/2013 7:36:51 PM >

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 118
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