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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 8:00:22 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Hasn't it been shown that there are only some sects of Islam that condone violence, while the rest are peaceful? Lumping all Islamic followers into the same box isn't any better than accrediting Catholic dogma to all Christian denominations.


I'm certainly not one to lump all the followers together, I've expressly stated that multiple times in the past about both religions you've mentioned.

Using Christianity as an example, there are quite a few extremely open, accepting, tolerant followers. They have become very adept at ignoring certain parts of the message such as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leviticus 20:13
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


So when I say that Christianity is not a religion of tolerance I'm not claiming that 100% of Christians are intolerant. I am pointing out that Christianity as a message has a text and history of one true way-ishness which becomes a problem if it's followed too closely.


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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 8:06:09 PM   
TallullahHk


Posts: 572
Joined: 8/20/2012
Status: offline 		I'm not sure how this info came about but the chief of trauma at Mass General said he and their docs did not receive any training by Israeli physicians. Perhaps BMC received training? They are the best trauma hospital in the city if not the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
The reason why the doctors handled the severe trauma so well yesterday was largely in part to specialised training they received by Israeli physicians.

[Boston] knew that bomb injuries were not part of their element and when they made revised disaster plans they asked Israeli doctors for their expertise.


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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 8:12:20 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I reckon it's odds-on that the purpetraitor isn't a true American.

They'll find that whoever did these horrible things was part of a terror cell or organisation.



In a more funny take on this, I remember back when the WTC was bombed in 1993, and CNN had Jimmy Breslin on, and he in his colorful way said they were 'foreigners'...and the other panelist was aghast, saying how could you say that, you don't know that, it is hateful, etc, and Breslin said "nah, nah, nah, they was foreigners, they weren't New Yorkers, NY'awkers will shoot you, they'll stab you or hit you over the head, but they won't blow you up" *lol*....ie his idea of a foreigner was any non NY'er:)

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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 8:25:19 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallullahHk

I'm not sure how this info came about but the chief of trauma at Mass General said he and their docs did not receive any training by Israeli physicians. Perhaps BMC received training? They are the best trauma hospital in the city if not the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
The reason why the doctors handled the severe trauma so well yesterday was largely in part to specialised training they received by Israeli physicians.

[Boston] knew that bomb injuries were not part of their element and when they made revised disaster plans they asked Israeli doctors for their expertise.



I as a volunteer first responder years ago, and that kind of trauma training existed back then though it wasn't as sophisticated. With all due respect to the Israelis, keep in mind that military doctors for over 10 years have had to deal with traumatic injuries like this from troops wounded in afghanistan and Iraq, by IEDS and the like, and while it is never worth the cost, wars tend to advance treatment.

Something I heard our of Boston is that doctors are grateful that first responders are well trained, that they successfully used tourniquets to keep people from bleeding out yet not losing the limbs. Tourniquets are tricky, because you don't want to cut off all circulation if there is any hope of re-attaching a limb, so it takes some tricks to make it work right..apparently people up there knew what to do, and I suspect that training came from the military and what they have learned. I looked at an EMT manual recently and was surprised by some of the changes (they are still debating, though, about whether to give someone who is dehydrated cold water or warm water, or whether to have some salt in it or not...:)

The Israelis often have this mythical status, that because they have been under the gun for so long they have developed mystical tanks that can repel any armor piercing rounds, their military is so well trained no one could defeat them, they developed stealth capability that even the US can't penetrate and so forth, or that the Mossad is this all knowing presence that knows everything (they don't, they didn't do a good job before 9/11, they were caught as much as US intelligence was, and they also supported that Hussein had WMD's.....). The reality is Israel is a small country surrounded by a lot of hostiles, and they have developed unique things because they had to, but it isn't mystical either (though the Israeli's themselves don't mind, scares the piss out of their enemies:).


Okay, now the funny military story. I don't know if people noticed in the videos of the aftermath of the bombing, guys in full military fatigues jumping over barriers to help the wounded and such. I wondered if they were national guard or something, turns out contingent of Army guys ran the marathon in full fatigues and army boots, and then pitched in to help:)....Can you imagine running a marathon in army boots? Course, if the SEALS entered a team, they prob would do it with a full field pack just to show off *lol*.


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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 8:29:06 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Emergency personnel in the middle of Boston are likely going to be paid professionals with more than a basic level of training, and probably experience.

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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 9:09:03 PM   
TallullahHk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Okay, now the funny military story. I don't know if people noticed in the videos of the aftermath of the bombing, guys in full military fatigues jumping over barriers to help the wounded and such. I wondered if they were national guard or something, turns out contingent of Army guys ran the marathon in full fatigues and army boots, and then pitched in to help:)....Can you imagine running a marathon in army boots? Course, if the SEALS entered a team, they prob would do it with a full field pack just to show off *lol*.




Not only did they run the marathon route in full fatigues and boots they ran it with 40 lbs pack on their backs! They were 15 active duty MA National Guard members running a Tough Ruck to honor comrades killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, or lost to suicide and PTSD-related accidents after coming home. They started running at 5 am and were at the medical tent when the first explosion went off. Many of them were first responders.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 9:38:25 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Sorry if this has already been posted.



"Former Counterterrorism Chief: ‘Gut Feeling’ Bomber Has Boston Connection (Video)"





"Michael Leiter is the former director of the United States National Counter-terrorism Center. Leiter thinks that while it’s “too soon” to judge whether the Boston attack was foreign or domestic terrorism his “gut feeling” is that the bomber has a connection to and is knowledgeable about Boston"



http://aattp.org/former-counterterrorism-chief-gut-feeling-bomber-has-boston-connection-video/

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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 9:44:13 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Hasn't it been shown that there are only some sects of Islam that condone violence, while the rest are peaceful?


If you have a look at the statistics for terrorism worldwide, the majority is Sunni jihad based.

Then again, I tend to think this shit happens for a reason, and since most Sunni are dirt poor, and since we also know that poverty correlates strongly with violence, it seems unreasonable to ascribe this directly to Sunni Islam. There are several potentially causal factors, and singling out Sunni muslims makes about as much sense as singling out blacks. Bombing a lot of these areas, similarly, bears the same resemblance to justice as does burning down poor neighbourhoods "to get rid of the filth", i.e. ne resemblance at all.

But, hey, what do I know?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 10:24:06 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Hasn't it been shown that there are only some sects of Islam that condone violence, while the rest are peaceful?

Do you think it wise to trust people who profess to want peace?

Would you be interested in buying the bridge I want to sell you, even though I do not own any bridges?

Do you ever wonder why nearly all Muslim woman hide their bodies, professing "not to want to be bothered by men"? (i.e. not wanting to be raped)

Do you truly think that the only warfare is that using guns and bombs and box cutters?

Can you list any other types of warfare?


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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 10:50:53 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Using Christianity as an example, there are quite a few extremely open, accepting, tolerant followers. They have become very adept at ignoring certain parts of the message such as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leviticus 20:13
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


That is not a Christian text.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 11:02:53 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm certainly not one to lump all the followers together, I've expressly stated that multiple times in the past about both religions you've mentioned.

Using Christianity as an example, there are quite a few extremely open, accepting, tolerant followers. They have become very adept at ignoring certain parts of the message such as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leviticus 20:13
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


So when I say that Christianity is not a religion of tolerance I'm not claiming that 100% of Christians are intolerant. I am pointing out that Christianity as a message has a text and history of one true way-ishness which becomes a problem if it's followed too closely.
I'm sure that it is a fault of My own that I have missed the other occurrences. However, I am truly glad to see you post this.

I appreciated this post a great deal. Thank you.



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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 11:04:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Then again, I tend to think this shit happens for a reason, and since most Sunni are dirt poor, and since we also know that poverty correlates strongly with violence, it seems unreasonable to ascribe this directly to Sunni Islam.

The determinants of violent crime are cultural and socioeconomic. But it's the cultural factor that determines how a people will react to their socioeconomic conditions. The world is full of dirt poor masses who have not embarked on a career of mayhem.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/16/2013 11:10:30 PM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallullahHk

I'm not sure how this info came about but the chief of trauma at Mass General said he and their docs did not receive any training by Israeli physicians. Perhaps BMC received training? They are the best trauma hospital in the city if not the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
The reason why the doctors handled the severe trauma so well yesterday was largely in part to specialised training they received by Israeli physicians.

[Boston] knew that bomb injuries were not part of their element and when they made revised disaster plans they asked Israeli doctors for their expertise.




A doctor was quoted on WGBH yesterday, but I can not tell you from which hospital at present.
It was mentioned again in passing today.


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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 3:49:15 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCristalDomme
I personally think all religions have their "grey" areas. That's why I chose Buddhism.
Without trying to be tricky, I fail to understand the logic behind this. How can be a characteristic shared by all elements of a group, a reason to choose one of them instead of any of the others?
As for me, I choose a philosophy which IMHO does not have black areas (grey is ok). Which is more I can say about any of the big religions. Including Buddhism.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 4/17/2013 3:54:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 4:59:41 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Hasn't it been shown that there are only some sects of Islam that condone violence, while the rest are peaceful? Lumping all Islamic followers into the same box isn't any better than accrediting Catholic dogma to all Christian denominations.

I'm certainly not one to lump all the followers together, I've expressly stated that multiple times in the past about both religions you've mentioned.
Using Christianity as an example, there are quite a few extremely open, accepting, tolerant followers. They have become very adept at ignoring certain parts of the message such as:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leviticus 20:13
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

So when I say that Christianity is not a religion of tolerance I'm not claiming that 100% of Christians are intolerant. I am pointing out that Christianity as a message has a text and history of one true way-ishness which becomes a problem if it's followed too closely.


You do realize that the OT "life" was vastly different than NT "life," right? The whole sacrificial lamb thing for forgiveness of sins was taken care of by Christ, so homosexuality may still be a sin, but the "put to death" thing may not apply anymore.

FWIW, it's usually best to reference the version of the Bible verse you are quoting.


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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 5:26:00 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
FWIW, it's usually best to reference the version of the Bible verse you are quoting.
Interesting enough, what Christianity includes or not from the Bible also seems to depend on the Epoche. In the first 1500 years of Christianity, few Christians had any problems considering the rules in the AT to be completely applicable and correct, and even quote the NT about this. And burn homosexuals on the pyre.

Only now, when another morality has expanded because (mostly) non-Christians fought for it for centuries (sometimes at the cost of their lives), the majority of the Christians"realise" that their religion "always" excluded those rules. Well, better late than never, but I would have preferred if they would have realised that 2000 years ago, not now.

But at least Christians now have finally found the true meaning of their religion, isn't it? So they are not responsible of what those "false" Christians did for centuries. They were no true Christians, after all, those guys with the stakes and the pyres. Only modern Christians are. The ones who have done nothing wrong.

...at least nothing wrong according to modern - conservative morality, of course. According to the morality after another 500 years or moral progress (on which I doubt we will get any help from them) probably yes, by that time, the new Christians will discover that today's Christians were not "true Christians" and that the Gospels "always" have rejected, for example, discrimination against artificial intelligences, or that they have always approved free abortion and homosexuality, the right to suicide, or whatever moral progress can we make in those time.

I am sorry if this message sounds bitter. But I have heard the same "argument" so often that I just have to wonder, were they all were during the centuries in which Christians understood their religion a way quite different of what now they all say is the "correct" way.

The religious texts of Christians support countless horrors. It is up the Christians to understand them in one or another way. And they have adapted their "revealed truth" to the morality imposed by the successful innovators. At the end, the texts do not matter against the blood of one single innocent: Christianity is what the Christians do. And this has been far, far away from any acceptable morality for centuries. Using the "true Scotsman" fallacy to protect somebody from this truth is, well, a fallacy.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 4/17/2013 5:36:58 AM >

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RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 5:36:33 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
they are not responsible of what those "false" Christians did for centuries. They were no true Christians, after all, those guys with the stakes and the pyres. Only modern Christians are. The ones who have done nothing wrong.

On the contrary: them people were Christians - but primitive Christians. The Christian population has been evolving into a more mentally advanced and civilized peoples these past one or two millennia.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 5:40:02 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
they are not responsible of what those "false" Christians did for centuries. They were no true Christians, after all, those guys with the stakes and the pyres. Only modern Christians are. The ones who have done nothing wrong.
On the contrary: them people were Christians - but primitive Christians. The Christian population has been evolving into a more mentally advanced and civilized peoples these past one or two millennia.
Agreed, of course. I was being ironical.
Let us hope DesideriScuri also understands this and does not pretend that the AT was not used as a source of law and morality in those last two millennia of Christianity. That's exactly my point. Christians were forced to adapt their interpretation of Christianity when it became impossible for them to support some things any longer, thanks to the moral progress of civilization. A progress which has been (and still is being) made more "against" as "thanks to" them.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 4/17/2013 5:44:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 5:44:46 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The Christian population has been evolving into a more mentally advanced and civilized peoples these past one or two millennia.


For clarification: I am talking about the biological - genetic - evolution of the brain and the mind that the brain produces.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Explosions at Boston Marathon - 4/17/2013 5:47:20 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The Christian population has been evolving into a more mentally advanced and civilized peoples these past one or two millennia.
For clarification: I am talking about the biological - genetic - evolution of the brain and the mind that the brain produces.
If you are speaking about Darwinian, biological, natural evolucion, then I do not understand which mechanisms do you propose for the natural selection and which evolutive advantages are considered. But this is *so* off-topic that I beg you to answer using a PM if you answer at all.

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Profile   Post #: 180
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