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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 8:02:57 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Don't many around here feel that most young people can turn their lives around?



Well of course. Is that rehabilitation though, or simply growing up, and moving on?

My inclination is to think this teenaged monster got sucked into it by his brother, but that doesn't change that he went out and committed monstrous acts.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 8:20:08 AM   
MasterCaneman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Don't many around here feel that most young people can turn their lives around?



Well of course. Is that rehabilitation though, or simply growing up, and moving on?

My inclination is to think this teenaged monster got sucked into it by his brother, but that doesn't change that he went out and committed monstrous acts.


Beat me to it. Also, throughout history, despots, dictators, and other monster always aim to indoctrinate the youth because their minds are more easily swayed into believing the protagonist's aims (e.g. Hitler Youth, African child soldiers, suicide bombers). They don't have the benefit of years and experience to judge that what the man is telling them. There will be no rehabilitation for that one. He's a dead man, in time. Whether directly by the feds or through the system itself killing him one day at a time, there is number to his days.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 8:45:11 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Okay its almost 3am, I have had some red wine {for my heart of course}, and I am tipsy posting.
Oh, we've all done that.

quote:

Does it bother anyone else that the suspected terrorists are so young?
Yes, it does a little bit. I wish all lil ones were allowed to grow innocently, without being taught hatred/evil. Having said that, as they not only learned it, but unleashed it on innocent people, the very least we can do, is educate them, by unleashing the consequences on them. I'm not always against the death penalty, by the way.

quote:

My favorite heartbeat young person is 19, and we were talking about this tonight.
He was floored that the suspect was the same age that he is.
It is always sad, each time we have to face humans inhumanity, but we use the justice system as well as we can, and than it's onward, and forward.

quote:

Does the fact that the 19 year old appeared to be so involved in such typical Western activities, including recent high school graduation/and being enrolled in college matter?
It should have mattered to him, and given him a different perspective on life, living, and possibily loving other humans. Unfortunately, it that he was a complete waste of time and resources.

quote:

Another reason I ask this, is because so many seem to feel that young/juvenile offenders can be rehabiliated no matter crimes they commit.
Its so easy to think that way, except in cases like this.
I would like to think that most people at initial brushes with the law, can be rehabilitated. I don't know this person. All I know, is that he lived his life in a very calculated way. He lived very normally, than premeditated, did something very evil, destructive.
I will not be the judge, or even on that jury, but my feeling is what ever he gets, he deserves.

quote:

Is it just me, or does it not really matter?
Does the fact that they are/were 26 and 19 matter, or is it not relevant?
Their ages would be relevant to me, if they were in an accident, and ran because they were afraid, to later turn selves in. Their ages would be relevant, if they got into a fight, and someone got hurt/killed, accidentally. Their ages would even matter, if they accidently hurt a lot of people with a car, while (God forbid) drunk.
Being evil, and capable of mass destruction has not minimum age limit. Usually, being young means that one has not grown bitter, and hateful or humanity. Usually, we consider age, because of that fact. The punishment should fit the crime, not the age of the perpetrator. M

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 8:54:17 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
My inclination is to think this teenaged monster got sucked into it by his brother, but that doesn't change that he went out and committed monstrous acts.
This has been My feeling as well, Rich.

To the OP, no, it's not that one of these brothers is 19 that bothers Me. What bugs Me more were certain interviews that were given on CNN yesterday that had people repeatedly shocked it was this particular 19 year old and what a good guy they knew him to be. Friends that had known him in high school who talked about him being a good student and his prior volunteering with disabled kids. (Yes, I realize most colleges these days require some form of community service when looking at being accepted at school.) None of his associates from school had a bad thing to say about him.

I also noticed that these interviews were generally with folks who said they 'drifted apart' in the past year or so. Something, more likely someONE, in that time frame poisoned this kid's mind. Can that be rehabilitated out of him? Possibly. Even so, with the sentence he should receive for the acts he committed, I doubt it really matters.



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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 9:57:05 AM   
Marini


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Its too late to edit my OP--I wish I had mentioned {as many have on this thread} more about the background of the suspects.

The suspects parents came here around 12 years ago, from Kyrgystan and Chechnya, a primarily Muslim region in Southern Russia, with a history of conflict and insurrection.

The parents were granted political asylum, and the younger suspect came to the US, around the age of 7.
The younger suspect basically grew up in a Western environment, and from most accounts seemed acclimated into Western society.

Obviously, he was influenced heavily by his older brother, what happened to these young men?
Why did they turn there backs on the American dream?

The Boston Marathom is being discussed a million ways until Sunday around here, why not discuss the backgrounds of these young men, and how the family came into the USA?
I can't be the only person that sees irony in why the young men's family came to this country {to pursue the American dream}, were granted asylum, raised these boys here/who appeared to be immersed in the Western world, and what these boys are accused of.


What went wrong here, or is this just a random event, and it really doesn't matter why these young men might have become terrorists?


< Message edited by Marini -- 4/20/2013 10:13:31 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 9:58:43 AM   
Baroana


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A few dots as in..... you're a xenophobe?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 10:04:08 AM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

A few dots as in..... you're a xenophobe?


Maybe a few dots as in.....American terrorists, ms.cat.
No, Ms. Sunshine and light, I am not a xenophobe, are you a cataphobe?

The backgrounds of these young men and how and why their parents brought the family into the United States, may or maynot be relevant to what has happened.

So much easier to call people names, rather than discuss issues.
You are obviously a "name caller" sort of poster, with nothing else to add to the discussion.

Many people want to know everything they can find/figure out about the suspects.
We can sort through what is relevant, and what is not relevant to what the suspects are accused of being/which is being called TERRORISTS.
Have a great day, sunshine

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/20/2013 10:37:39 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 10:16:18 AM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I had in mind the kind of questions the muhly22222 had no trouble identifying and asking. I would have thought that in negotiating any of life's problems, asking if one contributed to creating the problem is always a good policy.

Clearly there was a failure to imbue values appropriate to the society they were living in into these two thugs. Which no one seems to have noticed. Why did a 19 year old feel the only way to change the world was through murderous suicidal violence? Was his world that devoid of hope? Why didn't anyone notice? I find it amazing that he didn't feel able to share any of his inner feelings with the adults around him none of the adults - family, teachers trainers imans. Even his relations profess to be as mystified by his behaviour as every one else.

You seem to be suggesting that questions such as these shouldn't be asked. Unless these questions are asked and answered, there's nothing to prevent the horror being replicated in the future by another alienated youth with another grudge or cause.

Some might even argue that this is part of the difference between a kneejerk response and a considered one.


I enjoyed both of your well thought out posts.
Why "can't" these "issues" be discussed?
I am with you on this one, WHY can't these questions be asked?


< Message edited by Marini -- 4/20/2013 10:19:08 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 10:30:52 AM   
Marini


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quote:

I don't know what caused either of those guys to do what they did. I find it incredible that two so young could have so much hate that they would do what they planned to do. It's one thing to kill someone as a reaction, but these two planned this shit out. There was foreknowledge and planning. That takes a shitload more than young angst.

If they had grown up "on the mean streets" as gang members or such, that would be a different story, but I'm going to guess that this is not the case for these two, considering their location. That's not saying that Boston or MA doesn't have it's issues, but I don't think that is typical of the MIT/college student/graduate. Ya know?

They have been here 11 years? Did I read somewhere that they earned scholarships to come and attend college in the US? Wtf happened in those 11 years? How did they gather that much hate?

These things bother me. Greatly.


I think you articulated very well, what many people are thinking.
If it is proven they are guilty, what "got" into their heads to want
to do this?
Did they act alone?
Who else is involved or behind them?
Will we ever find these things out?
Time will tell

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/20/2013 10:31:25 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:03:34 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I suspect that as more facts are revealed in time, a lot of very difficult questions are going to be raised for all members of all Western societies and I don't feel optimistic that these questions will be addressed let alone the underlying issues resolved.

so part of tha blame for these kids laying bombs for a massacre of civilians in their own community lies wit tha west & all members of tha west must wrestle wit that fact?

yr point could be taken as a need for tha west to question tha violent antipathy within islam itself but in view of yr apologistic tendency of tha faith i take yr comment the other way.

I had in mind the kind of questions the muhly22222 had no trouble identifying and asking. I would have thought that in negotiating any of life's problems, asking if one contributed to creating the problem is always a good policy.

ya mean what tha west did in creating a problem where Chechen kids planted bombs amongst american families to kill as many folks as possible?

quote:


Clearly there was a failure to imbue values appropriate to the society they were living in into these two thugs. Which no one seems to have noticed. Why did a 19 year old feel the only way to change the world was through murderous suicidal violence? Was his world that devoid of hope? Why didn't anyone notice? I find it amazing that he didn't feel able to share any of his inner feelings with the adults around him none of the adults - family, teachers trainers imans. Even his relations profess to be as mystified by his behaviour as every one else.

we dont know too much about what happened so yer speculation is premature by assuming negativities bout US culture. it presumes too much to say it was to do wit tha society they lived in coz they came from a different background where jihadi violence is common. we also know tha younger brother was named after a Chechen militant so its doubtful their families were 100% unknowing. plus tha violence wasnt suicidal coz they seemed pretty interested in surviving & escaping.

why do ya keep saying "thugs" & not "terrorists"? kinda feels like using watered down language.

quote:

You seem to be suggesting that questions such as these shouldn't be asked. Unless these questions are asked and answered, there's nothing to prevent the horror being replicated in the future by another alienated youth with another grudge or cause.

Some might even argue that this is part of the difference between a kneejerk response and a considered one.

theres loadsa alienation in tha US. its an issue round tha whole west & agree it needs to be taken seriously but tha whole prima facie situation wit these kids looks pretty atypical at this stage. could just as easily be a foreign cultural issue.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/20/2013 11:09:58 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:16:40 AM   
kdsub


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We do not agree often tweak but we do here. I can understand ignorance of true world events and motives that often warp children in closed societies but that is not the case in the US and free western world. We may be bombarded with our own form of propaganda just as every nationalistic society is but we at least have access to many sources of information throughout the world to make intelligent choices.

By all accounts he was an intelligent boy....why and how did he become so radical in our society?

Butch

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:25:43 AM   
Marini


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quote:

We do not agree often tweak but we do here. I can understand ignorance of true world events and motives that often warp children in closed societies but that is not the case in the US and free western world. We may be bombarded with our own form of propaganda just as every nationalistic society is but we at least have access to many sources of information throughout the world to make intelligent choices.

By all accounts he was an intelligent boy....why and how did he become so radical in our society?

Butch


That is all that I am asking here.
I also consider anyone that commits or attempts to commit mass murder of innocent people an act of terrorism, be they an Adam Lanza, a Tim McVeigh, or the suspects in question.
Dang, Lanza was 20 and the suspect in question was 19!
What is going on with these young men?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:33:06 AM   
tj444


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FR-

I think my question about why family members stopped talking to them has been answered, for the most part.. the older brother was even kicked out of his uncle's house..

"Boston Bomb Suspect Alarmed Russian Relatives With Extremist Views"
http://news.yahoo.com/boston-bomb-suspect-alarmed-russian-relatives-extremist-views-163600939--abc-news-topstories.html

It is my opinion at this time that if the younger one did not have the older (extremist) one as his brother, he likely would not have ever done anything like this.. imo, his older brother had a lot of influence over him & he tagged along as many younger siblings tend to do.. to his detriment..

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:34:56 AM   
njlauren


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There is no way at this point to know why someone so young turned the way he did, that one is going to be meat for the profilers and such. The fact that he is so young seems to be shocking because we associate youth with naivete, a blank slate, of not experiencing the horrors of life..but because the young haven't been exposed, they are subject in many cases to easier indoctrination. Cults tend to work best on the young, if Jim Jones came up to a typical 50 year old and told him his spiel, they would be a lot more likely to laugh then an 18 year old. At that age, so much is open, they haven't experienced much, and it is still very, very easy to be manipulated, as the 19 year old may have been. An older sibling can be especially influential with these kinds of things, younger siblings can hero worship the older one, and the rest is history.

One of the key factors here? Alienation, and it is huge. The creep in Aurora was alienated, the two at Columbine were alienated. Immigrants often feel something weird, like they aren't of their old country any more but they don't feel necessarily like they are a part of their new country. My wife wasn't born here, came here as a child, and she still feels that, after so many years (yet my dad, who came to this country when roughly the same age, said he never felt like he was Italian, he said his allegiance was to another country, NYC *lol*). The older brother seems like he felt he never fit in, and felt comfort in identifying with something, in this case with the radicals from back home (nothing like an outsider, to feel like a part of a group of other outsiders, to feel like being part of something). Why they chose the Marathon I'll never know, or why a US event, you would figure they would target something like the Russian embassy .......but the reality was, they chose to hurt people because they could, they planned this, and were quite good at it (unfortunately).

Trying to pin it on Islam or any ideology is hard, because while the brother was apparently radicalized, it doesn't seem like the religion was the motive from what little we know, it sounds more like about what happened back home with the Russians (obviously, this is idle speculation). Religion or other ideology can serve someone alienated well, in the case of Islam, the idea that it brings some sort of justice to the world. Timothy McVeigh, who killed all those people in Oklahoma City, was a whitebread Irish Catholic brought up near Buffalo, not some freak from the Islamic world, and his ideology was the right wing, new world order type of thing that flourishes in right wing crank land, that helps people with diminished futures, like him and his family, blue collar, rust belt, white, not well educated, in terms of some sort of conspiracy of liberals and the government 'taking away' their America and so forth. To these people, it might be that they use the idea of social justice in Islam to justify what they were doing.

As far as can someone like this kid be rehabilitated? Hardened criminals in jails sometimes do, in a sense, they get involved in programs to try and scare kids in trouble into the reality of jail, some of them from their jail cells get an education and then use their time to do things to help others or write or whatever, but that doesn't mean they are fit for society, either. There are two factors with the accused that make me think he can never see the light of day again, whether or not he can be rehabbed: 1)He has to face the consequences of his actions, he wasn't 12, he wasn't a child, and he did what he did knowing it was wrong. The idea of rehab might temper the penalty (life in jail versus death penalty), that perhaps he could make amends for what he did by speaking out to other people, especially the young, about the dangers of getting taken in by ideology like he did 2)It would set a precedent that you can look at someone who otherwise seemed like a decent person and if they come on trial, assume that therefore what they did could be explained away, and that is dangerous, to say the least, when it comes to actions like this you cannot send mixed messages, and say 'we hate terrorism but we understand why someone did it). One of the things we have to remember is something Hanah Arendt called "the banality of evil", that often horrible acts aren't committed by cartoon character bad guys, but are done by people who are so boringly like your next door neighbor.....so we can't say "well, he seemed like such a nice kid" and forget the evil they did.

It is sad when someone so young threw away their lives and wasted the lives of others on something like this, but as sorry as I feel about a wasted life I feel more sorry for the 3 victims of the bombing, the many horribly injured, who were maimed, the MIT cop who was gunned down at age 26, and the people who might very well end up so messed up in the head they can't cope. The fucktards who pulled off 9/11 were young, too, doesn't make what they did any less evil.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:39:51 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

We do not agree often tweak but we do here. I can understand ignorance of true world events and motives that often warp children in closed societies but that is not the case in the US and free western world. We may be bombarded with our own form of propaganda just as every nationalistic society is but we at least have access to many sources of information throughout the world to make intelligent choices.

By all accounts he was an intelligent boy....why and how did he become so radical in our society?

Butch


That is all that I am asking here.
I also consider anyone that commits or attempts to commit mass murder of innocent people an act of terrorism, be they an Adam Lanza, a Tim McVeigh, or the suspects in question.
Dang, Lanza was 20 and the suspect in question was 19!
What is going on with these young men?


Think about this one......who are prime meat for the military? Young men in their late teens and twenties, who are put through a process to desensitize them, to give them a core identity, and to turn that nice boy next door into basically someone capable of killing many, many people. Obviously, I am not saying what the military does is criminal, I am just saying that young men have always been prime subjects for the kind of things we see, the kind of ability to be molded, shaped, propagandized, coerced and so forth, has always been there (and I am saying young men simply because up until recently, women were excluded from a lot of this;young women can be as easily coerced, just that usually boys have been the targets until fairly recently; think of female suicide bombers in Israel and so forth, and you get the idea).

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:42:29 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Why "can't" these "issues" be discussed?
I am with you on this one, WHY can't these questions be asked?

you were replying to tweaks who replied to me so i need to clarify that i never said these questions cant be discussed & i share tha concerns about various kids taking up guns to kill.

i asked tweaks why she thought tha massacre at tha boston marathon posed difficult questions for all members of every western society, not just tha US. if its is a hard issue for everyone in tha west then it seemed to suggest tha west is kinda blameworthy in its relations wit other cultures but maybe i took tweaks up wrong so thats why i asked.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 11:51:39 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Timothy McVeigh, who killed all those people in Oklahoma City, was a whitebread Irish Catholic brought up near Buffalo, not some freak from the Islamic world, and his ideology was the right wing, new world order type of thing that flourishes in right wing crank land

agreed on mcveighs right wing political motives but he wasnt religious & often said he didnt believe in God tho he did ask for a catholic priest at tha end.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 12:00:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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A 19 year old man child held a major american city hostage yesterday
How do we deal with that ?
Hell how do we ,as Americans ,understand that ?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 12:04:04 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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give them chechen jihadi folks money to kill more school kids in russia & hope for tha best?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/20/2013 12:05:05 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

I think even tho someone those ages have adult bodies, their brains are still developing.. I consider myself at those ages as a "kid" cuz I look back now and see how differently I think about things now.. when you are young at those ages, its easy to be influenced (in both good and bad ways).. by other people, the media, books, internet, etc.. the problem is they dont realize that manipulation and that they can be a pawn for someone or some ideal, movement, etc & they dont think things thru, they dont think about the negative consequences..


At 19, he's legally an adult. But what of his emotional age? If he was that easily manipulated by his older brother into doing this (something I strongly believe to be the case) he isn't all that mature. He's just a "kid". I work mostly with 18-24 y/o guys. Their emotional and maturity levels range from 5-12 years of age, though.

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