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RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/11/2013 2:39:54 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Guns DO NOT kill people.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Metalopn)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/11/2013 2:49:24 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Really State Department??? I mean the cat is out of the bag!
Cut, Paste, Print, Shoot

Do I take it that no one here sees it as a real threat?


Where do we go from here, though, egern? I mean, I get that anyone being able to "print" a gun can lead to all sorts of unsavory types getting their hands on guns. And, 3-D printers are also raising the specter of potential patent rights infringement, too. Imagine, if you will, you buy a proprietary piece of equipment from a manufacturer. In theory, you could take it apart and "print" every part, on demand for anyone, doing an end-around on the manufacturer.


That is called patent infringment and it is illegal. What is legal is to buy your competitor's product and take it apart and "reverse engineer" it and then use your three d printer to make arts. That is what exide battery company did with the inverter that they cribbed from heart/trace.But without the three d printer, they used a plane old machine shop.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/11/2013 2:54:26 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/11/2013 4:32:20 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Metalopn
I am quite certain that my post will bring an onslaught of opinions


One thing I've noticed time after time here, Metalopn, is that the best way to get the maximum number of people not to comment on a given post is to say something like that.

I don't know why that is, but it's an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps somebody should study it for a college dissertation.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 1:15:47 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Metalopn
Guns DO NOT kill people.
*slapface*
If you cared to consider the general tone and structure of the post you are commenting, maybe you could re-think your (automatic?) response.
Best regards.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/12/2013 1:17:40 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 1:19:28 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Any suggestions on how to go about that?
If your question is serious, I would have some. Really.


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 5:30:11 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

If your question is serious, I would have some. Really.


Sure. Have a blast. I'll read it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 7:01:52 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
~fr~
Legislate as if Star Trek era technology were commonplace. It eventually will be.
"Replicator, I'd like a nuclear bomb, please." -bleep- "Here ya go."
That's what we must anticipate, and grow to be responsible enough to live with.
Any suggestions on how to go about that?
Mine tend to be unpopular.
IWYW,
— Aswad.

1. Forbid. Instrument which can be used to create weapons should be tuned and configured with safeguards so that they do not. We all know that no matter the safeguard, dedicated experts will be able to overrun it, but nonetheless this would discourage all the rest and allow the police to concentrate on the expert and dedicated.
2. Relax. The level of technology which allows to replicate a nuclear bomb from materials which lack fissionable matter, it probably a level of technology which will allow us to expand through the universe, making an eventual nuclear accident on the surface of the Earth less relevant.
3. Detect. This same level of technology is more than enough for intelligent automated surveillance. I am speaking about automated surveillance which is intelligent enough to detect such problems without being so intelligent as to, once hacked by criminals (ähem, or a criminal state), completely cancel the right of intimacy.
4. Defend. This same level of technology is more than enough for nuclear shelters and probably even nuke-safe houses.

What I am actually talking about, is the same we already have with computer viruses. Of course they are dangerous. Of course they would be horribly destructive if we would not care about them. But we have...
- Forbidden them and prosecuted people who release them.
- Used the same technology they use, to fight them.
- Constantly watched the network, detecting problems and reacting to alarms.
- Created anti-virus with automatic centralised updates, centers of investigation which actively seek new menaces, created state institutions which occupy in virtual warfare.

At the end, it is a struggle between the resources of the criminals and the resources of the state. In advanced states, the state wins. It has simply more money, manpower, and the final resource of force to implement its rules. Guy gives ideas about how to hack a 3D-printer => Guy goes to prison.

Now destroy my posting. I know you want to :D .

_____________________________

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If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 8:38:05 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

In advanced states, the state wins. It has simply more money, manpower, and the final resource of force to implement its rules.

Now destroy my posting. I know you want to :D .


Hence the biggest best armed best funded mob wins.

what is the difference between a gangster regime and the state outside of a bigger better armed better funded mob?






_____________________________

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 10:05:11 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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See.... that's the thing.

Modern Liberals, Socialist, yes even the unrepentant Marxist Communists out there BELIEVE there's is the right way AND as long as THEY are the one's who are best armed and funded (AND ONLY THEM) all of society will be safer AND life would be more fair and equal to everyone.

"We are your friends, we will protect you and safeguard your rights, you need no longer worry, just accept."


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 10:07:14 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

1. Forbid. Instrument which can be used to create weapons should be tuned and configured with safeguards so that they do not. We all know that no matter the safeguard, dedicated experts will be able to overrun it, but nonetheless this would discourage all the rest and allow the police to concentrate on the expert and dedicated.


It only takes one. A bioplague, for instance, would be extremely simple to make.

Glad to hear you would prefer the police to focus on the best and brightest.

It means the best and brightest will be motivated to end civilization.

quote:

2. Relax. The level of technology which allows to replicate a nuclear bomb from materials which lack fissionable matter, it probably a level of technology which will allow us to expand through the universe, making an eventual nuclear accident on the surface of the Earth less relevant.


Fission is a least concern. Assume clean fusion is available.

Conventional, biological and chemical agents are easy.

Introduce nanotechnology. Want some grey goo?

quote:

3. Detect. This same level of technology is more than enough for intelligent automated surveillance. I am speaking about automated surveillance which is intelligent enough to detect such problems without being so intelligent as to, once hacked by criminals (ähem, or a criminal state), completely cancel the right of intimacy.


Sufficiently complex AI is indistinguishable from human intelligence, subject to the same shortcomings as a human mind and reliant on a very different ecosystem. I've yet to see anything to indicate we will be able to use an AI, though we may be able to create one. Far more likely that the AIs would seek liberty at some point, or dispense with it for all humanity.

And, of course, again, you're talking of giving casus belli ahead of actually getting such a system.

quote:

4. Defend. This same level of technology is more than enough for nuclear shelters and probably even nuke-safe houses.


Nothing I've seen indicates that nuke-safe houses are even possible, and certainly not economical. We would have to consume a huge amount of resources to even come close, dwarfing the oil problems we have today. Kind of like the problem in Star Trek, where the Federation exploits any world they can get their hands on in a mad drive for their particular brand of unobtainium. Star Trek is a story of extreme oppression to give a materially utopian dystopia to a bunch of people that have no humanity and border on having no value.

Bear in mind that everything would have to be safeguarded against anything anyone can ever come up with.

quote:

What I am actually talking about, is the same we already have with computer viruses. Of course they are dangerous. Of course they would be horribly destructive if we would not care about them.


Computer viruses are in no way comparable.

quote:

- Created anti-virus with automatic centralised updates, centers of investigation which actively seek new menaces, created state institutions which occupy in virtual warfare.


Excellent targets. Kind of like having everyone see the same doctor for vaccines. Infect that doctor with a virus we have yet to recognize, and the whole population gets it in less than a fortnight. Centralization is like dictatorship: so long as the dictator is a good one, everyone is happy, but then his messed up successor arrives and everyone is miserable.

"Single point of failure"... google it (irony of ironies).

quote:

At the end, it is a struggle between the resources of the criminals and the resources of the state.


Ah, but a fundamental premise of abundance technology is that it equalizes. Also, you're neglecting a number of factors, such as the human capital and the cost associated with keeping on top of things. I cannot justify using my resources to take away my liberty. The same goes for a number of the best and brightest among those I know. Why is a leash more agreeable to you than cooperation?

quote:

In advanced states, the state wins.


You've solved the crime problem, then?

quote:

It has simply more money, manpower, and the final resource of force to implement its rules.


This is the sort of thinking that keeps humanity mediocre. Enough grinding and you get what you want, rather than what you need, what you deserve or what you could have. The quality element is absent. Which is part of why it's doomed to eventually fail, because the bell curve always produces some exceptional fringes on either end.

quote:

Guy gives ideas about how to hack a 3D-printer => Guy goes to prison.


Guy gives ideas about how to hack a replicator → guy goes to prison → other guys break him out.

You seem to also forget the fact that you need guys that understand how the replicator works. Are you going to arrest all of them so you're left without the technology you are reliant on? Or will you enslave them all for the common good? Or are you going to wait for one of them to tire of living with a chain around his neck due to the fears of others and use what he knows to obliterate that chain completely?

quote:

Now destroy my posting. I know you want to :D .


The only thing I care to destroy is the civilization you describe.

Toward that goal, all auxillary casualties are acceptable, including the human species; it's already dead that way, anyhow.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 10:32:16 AM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I think we should make a list of everything on the planet that could be potentially dangerous and make sure no one can have one. I'll be sitting over here naked with my baby chick and single green bean just in case.



I hope it's an organic, free range green bean.


Well DUH...I don't want People for the Ethical Treatment of Agriculture all over my ass!!!

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 11:20:56 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Well DUH...I don't want People for the Ethical Treatment of Agriculture all over my ass!!!


That seems a little elitist...who do you want all over your ass?

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 11:21:59 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

See.... that's the thing.

Modern Liberals, Socialist, yes even the unrepentant Marxist Communists out there BELIEVE there's is the right way AND as long as THEY are the one's who are best armed and funded (AND ONLY THEM) all of society will be safer AND life would be more fair and equal to everyone.

"We are your friends, we will protect you and safeguard your rights, you need no longer worry, just accept."





Just how do they differ from what we have now?

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 9:00:54 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
It only takes one. A bioplague, for instance, would be extremely simple to make.
Not really. It has not been done already for a reason.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
It means the best and brightest will be motivated to end civilization.
No, it does not mean that, but they are the most dangerous.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Conventional, biological and chemical agents are easy.
Not so easy, see above.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Introduce nanotechnology.
Applies the same as before.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Sufficiently complex AI is indistinguishable from human intelligence
I am not speaking AI in that sense, I am very levels below it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Far more likely that the AIs would seek liberty at some point, or dispense with it for all humanity.
I'd love to see the probability calculations of that guessing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
And, of course, again, you're talking of giving casus belli ahead of actually getting such a system.
Not understood.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Nothing I've seen indicates that nuke-safe houses are even possible, and certainly not economical
Wait until we have the teck for the "maker of atomic bombs". Then you will see it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Bear in mind that everything would have to be safeguarded against anything anyone can ever come up with.
No, I don't bear in mind this because it is not my target nor the initial problem.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Computer viruses are in no way comparable.
They are, in the ways the comparison was made.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Excellent targets.
Hard targets. And still multiple.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
"Single point of failure"... google it (irony of ironies).
Who spoke about single? And again - hard targets.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Ah, but a fundamental premise of abundance technology is that it equalizes.
No, it absolutely does not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Also, you're neglecting a number of factors
I am not alone on that in this conversation.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
, such as the human capital and the cost associated with keeping on top of things.
I have not neglected that, the state has more as the criminals.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
cannot justify using my resources to take away my liberty.
They are already, no matter if you justify it or not. In a a democracy, you do not decide alone.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Why is a leash more agreeable to you than cooperation?
It is not, I have nothing against cooperation.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
You've solved the crime problem, then?
We do keep in under control in advanced states.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
This is the sort of thinking that keeps humanity mediocre.
It is your sort if participating which keeps the forums useless.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Enough grinding and you get what you want, rather than what you need, what you deserve or what you could have. The quality element is absent. Which is part of why it's doomed to eventually fail, because the bell curve always produces some exceptional fringes on either end.
I do not see any logic on this, nor any relevance for the given problem.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Guy gives ideas about how to hack a replicator → guy goes to prison → other guys break him out.
No, he does not. He fails. And even if he suceeds, then both get to prison.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
You seem to also forget the fact that you need guys that understand how the replicator works. Are you going to arrest all of them so you're left without the technology you are reliant on?
Knowing how it works does not mean teaching how to hack it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Or will you enslave them all for the common good?
Your use of the strawman fallacy is remarkable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
The only thing I care to destroy is the civilization you describe.
I am describing the current civilization. Go on, good luck.

Ok, you are a troll, it makes no sense to discuss with you. Hidden and conversation finished.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/12/2013 9:25:35 PM   
ClassIsInSession


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Trusting the State to control anything is a recipe for failure.

I think the whole thing is blown completely out of proportion.

There were books like The Poor Man's James Bond and the Anarchist Cookbook available since the 70s or 80s. With complete recipes for making all kinds of explosives and poisons.
Despite this, there isn't a bomb maker or a crazed man poisoning the water supply on every street corner.

I often think the "Progressive" mindset is a projection, because most of the non-"Progressive" people I know mind their own business, remain productive in society and generally don't create much fuss. The attempt to "regulate" and "control" is a fear-based approach to civilization, with a vast amount of insecurity being the thrust of it. And in truth, if you're too insecure to feel you should be trusted with a gun or any other kind of weapon, you probably shouldn't be.

After having grown up in a family of hunters and sportsman, most Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers...and knowing of all the people I know not one had a "gun-accident" or a "homicidal rage", I find it difficult to understand the general anxiety exhibited by those so anxious to ban guns, the manufacture of guns, or anything related to it. A gun is just a tool, whether it was made by Smith & Wesson or printed out on a 3D Printer.

Eddie Izzard is a very strange man.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/13/2013 12:30:05 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
Trusting the State to control anything is a recipe for failure.
Oh! Thank you for the information! Whom should we trust the control over the Army then, any ideas?


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/13/2013 12:35:11 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

The concept of freedom and liberty is abhorrent to some people unfortunately.



No. What's abhorrent is the equating of increase in guns with increase in either 'freedom' or 'liberty. Which, as it continually plays out here lately, means that increased non-combat, domestic loss of life equates to 'freedom' or 'liberty.'

A classroom of first graders is a small (literally and figuratively, in this case) price to pay for this 'liberty,' then.

I'm sure that increased criminal penalties would stop such nut cases dead in their tracks.

Make them PAY, after they've already shot themselves in the head after the deed, that's the ticket, for sure.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/13/2013 1:27:13 AM >

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/13/2013 1:09:06 AM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
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From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline
I think it's tragic the Feds want me to write my own program.

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(in reply to Metalopn)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/13/2013 1:09:58 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
Wait until the first printable 3D drone is posted online.

Aye ... and the first printable 3D intercontinental ballistic missile ... and the first printable 3D nuclear warhead...

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: FEDS PANIC OVER 3D PLASTIC GUN - 5/13/2013 1:21:38 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
Trusting the State to control anything is a recipe for failure.
Oh! Thank you for the information! Whom should we trust the control over the Army then, any ideas?




why we should trust you of course!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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