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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 8:49:00 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree tweaks ideas would solve no problems and in the long run exasperate them.

I also agree with you about the economics in the region but I am not sure how we could do this.

Myself I am simple… I think many of the problems in the middle east are from a vague continually changing policy and misconceptions of the US roll in the region.

Soooo

I would work on more than one front… First I would continue to strive to make the US energy independent so we have no falsely perceived reason to manipulate peoples and governments in the region. Otherwise so we could be trusted to be a fair arbitrator in disagreements if asked. This goal was impossible a few years ago but now it is easily in our capabilities. One problem with this is although we would gain trust we would further weaken the regions economy.

Second… I would reevaluate our support for every government in the region and this would of course include Israel. We don’t have to withdraw support from Palestine or Israel or any other regional government but we do have to state a fair independent PUBLIC policy towards each and make sure that all aid is based on compliance. Then make sure these policies are known throughout the region and be absolutely consistent in the administration of them. If this reevaluation meant removing support both materially and militarily then so be it...just stand by what is fair and right no matter the cost. We don't have to give up our principals just to please a friendly government.

Third… With fair public policies supporting no oppressive government we engage friendly Middle Eastern governments to aid in a peace process with the radical elements in the region. Failing a successful peace we can then enlist THEIR aid in removing this radical element within them.

Just a start.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/19/2013 8:58:54 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 9:36:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree tweaks ideas would solve no problems and in the long run exasperate them.

I also agree with you about the economics in the region but I am not sure how we could do this.

There's the rub. I'm not sure how we could.

To start with we have a fairly significant hurdle to investing in the Mulsim world, the religion forbids charging interest on loans or investments. While an islamic banking industry is emerging that works inside those rules it would require eductaing western investors in how things work before significant investment could succeed. It might be better if the development came from within, as has happened in the UAE and the other oil rich small Gulf states.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 10:12:58 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not an expert in Islamic banking I think it can be made to work... but just in a different way. Rather than investing and requiring interest the Islamic banks would buy and obtain ownership of the particular investment then sell it to the third party buyer at a higher cost thus making their profit. It would be a shared risk between the bank and third party buyer making it consistent with Islamic law...I think.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 10:20:21 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not an expert in Islamic banking I think it can be made to work... but just in a different way. Rather than investing and requiring interest the Islamic banks would buy and obtain ownership of the particular investment then sell it to the third party buyer at a higher cost thus making their profit. It would be a shared risk between the bank and third party buyer making it consistent with Islamic law...I think.

Butch

That is how it is being done. I'm not saying it can't. I'm just saying if we want western investors to put money into the region they're going to have to be educated on how things are done in the region.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 10:23:32 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yep I agree...I'm not sure how US investors could gain long term investment income under that system anyway.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 4:20:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yep I agree...I'm not sure how US investors could gain long term investment income under that system anyway.

Butch

It's pretty simple really. Invest in an Islamic bank which could make the faux loans to start the small and mid size businesses the region so desperately needs. Proceeds would officially be profit sharing but it would still be effectively interest on the initial investment.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 5:11:49 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
No. The US is not at all innocent. We have been an expansionist, internationalist power since 1898 when we began competing with France and Great Britain.


Expansion westward fom the original 13 states started before 1898.
War with the barbary states started before 1898.
The mexican american war started before 1898.
The u.s. has not always spaned the continent.

quote:

What are the alternatives? If we withdraw from this pandora's box now the followers of Sayyid Qbit's puritanism will continue their attacks on the West to provoke us and on apostate muslim nations to purify them.



Assumes facts not in evidence.

quote:

The muslim nations will have been abandoned.


And this would piss them off at us????


quote:

Looking at the 'muslim spring' through a glass darkly here. From this pov these are not democratic or freedom loving uprisings; they are fundamentalist insurgencies meant to establish sharia law and a worldwide caliphate as happened in Iran, and place all women in burkas.


Why is that any of our business?
quote:


Wherever we wish to begin history we cannot discount the fact that militant islam is a toxic ideology that will not simply go away because we withdraw.


They arose in response to our pressence why is it inconcievable that if we leave they will feel that they have accomplished thir goal?

quote:

I do agree we blundered with the two Gulf Wars of pater/fils Bush. I will be happy to see our armies out of Afghanastan. The result will not be pleasant. Russia is already talking of beefing up their military on their southern border in anticipation.


So what?
quote:

We are certain not to be able to sit down with al-Zawahiri and negotiate a peace.


Why?

quote:

For one reason because that is not his intent



How do we know this?

quote:

and for another because the Islamists are so fragmented in location and affiliation. ?

How is that a problem

quote:

What strategy do you suggest?



Get out of thier country.
Apologize for fucking it up.
Pay reparations for the damages done.
Promise to stop acting like dicks.
What is so difficult about acting like an ethical adult?

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 5:41:51 PM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

There seems to be no way anyone can 'force' Israel to make a just peace with the Palestinians. Israel is winning with its current strategy which is, as you know, a settlers' movement propelled by their orthodox religious who believe the land was ceeded to them by their iron age warrior god.

The US is not able to speak with one voice within itself. The coalition on the Left might happily wish to withdraw troops from the ME but our politics is pressured by a coalition on the Right of warrior nationalism and religious fundamentalism. To my mind a very troublesome coalition. Obama has been trying to extricate our large military footprint while substituting a small force counter 'extremist' strategy. Not just for the sake of diplomacy but because the large force strategy is costly and misguided. The 'defense' of Israel is a major factor in our politics. The Left or Center Left could never win the presidency with a candidate who advocates forcing israel to do anything. That is our reality atm.


This seems a tad contradictory. On one hand, you are saying "There seems to be no way anyone can 'force' Israel to make a just peace with the Palestinians" (it is impossible to force Israel to make peace) while on the other, " The 'defense' of Israel is a major factor in our politics. The Left or Center Left could never win the presidency with a candidate who advocates forcing Israel to do anything." (ie. the US chooses to support Israel).

There is to my mind a compelling argument that had Palestinian conflict been resolved years ago, Islamic extremism might never have arisen. In Palestine the cycle of brutal dispossession/occupation creating anti-occupation terrorism leading to increased repression by the occupying forces is crystal clear. This cycle is also evident in other military engagements in the Middle East.

So when the US chooses to support the rogue State of Israel it is automatically buying into that cycle and making itself a target. Just as when the US chose to invade Iraq, it created another similar cycle and is reaping the result in horrors like the Boston bombing. The US has well within its power the capacity to force Israel to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians - it chooses not to. So long as this choice remains current, the US will remain a target.

It's a choice, not an existential impossibility. From where I sit, it doesn't appear that many Americans seem to be aware of the consequences of their choices, consequences that their political class keep carefully concealed from them.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/19/2013 5:46:08 PM >

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 7:44:28 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

This seems a tad contradictory. On one hand, you are saying "There seems to be no way anyone can 'force' Israel to make a just peace with the Palestinians" (it is impossible to force Israel to make peace) while on the other, " The 'defense' of Israel is a major factor in our politics. The Left or Center Left could never win the presidency with a candidate who advocates forcing Israel to do anything." (ie. the US chooses to support Israel).

I see the apparent contradiction. They really are two different things. I think Israel is hellbent on this current course. Any attempt to force them off it will lead to them digging in their heels even moreso. OTOH, our politics binds us to support Israel for the reasons I mentioned above. Regretably, that's my best reading of the situation here. Israel would have to do something egregiously barbaric and highly visible for the deed to penetrate the fog of our sources of public information and propaganda . . . at a time when we had a leader of sufficient authority to make him or her invulnerable to the political slings and arrows . . . someone like Eisenhower interceding over the Suez Canal conflict. I don't see anyone of that stature available.

quote:

There is to my mind a compelling argument that had Palestinian conflict been resolved years ago, Islamic extremism might never have arisen.

Hmmm . . . maybe. An alternative scenario would be the end of the Cold War leading to disarray in the mission of NATO and a consequential disinterest in any further propping up of Middle Eastern dictators. But, mostly you are right because Israel is in a stronger position now due to the Oslo Accords. Also, yanno, the only democracy in the ME, an island of white in a sea of brown, our eyes and ears in the ME, the holocaust, the second coming of Jesus, and a dozen other stories we tell ourselves.

quote:

So when the US chooses to support the rogue State of Israel it is automatically buying into that cycle and making itself a target. Just as when the US chose to invade Iraq, it created another similar cycle and is reaping the result in horrors like the Boston bombing.

Yes.

quote:

The US has well within its power the capacity to force Israel to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians

The attempt would tear us apart.

quote:

it chooses not to. So long as this choice remains current, the US will remain a target.

As I stated earlier I think we would be a target in any case. We are the big kid on the block. Israel/Palestine however poignant and regretable is just a convenient excuse for the Islamist fundamentalists whose prize is the Saudi Arabian peninsula and all the lands that revolve around Mecca. I am guessing that the 'street' hates their kings and princes and would happily replace them with whoever. Democracy is not a huge value. Cell phones are. Ironically, both the Royals and the religious crazies will suppress moderninity. Again . . . guessing. Would welcome your pov.

quote:

It's a choice, not an existential impossibility. From where I sit, it doesn't appear that many Americans seem to be aware of the consequences of their choices, consequences that their political class keep carefully concealed from them.

Oh yes! They lie to us.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 7:54:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

to penetrate the fog of our sources of public information and propaganda


Why use that tone Vince... there is no propaganda... at least in the sense of deceiving the public... The media view is guided by the point of view of the public... All reporting even by the most even handed and fair minded news services are always filtered through the point of view of the country it is presented in... Calling propaganda is not fair at all.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 7:56:51 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Expansion westward fom the original 13 states started before 1898.
War with the barbary states started before 1898.
The mexican american war started before 1898.
The u.s. has not always spaned the continent.

The Barbary events were rather singular and were to our east. They had plundered one of our ships in the harbor at Tripoli and held the crew hostage. We were barely a nation. I think Teddy Roosevelt was our first international empire builder.

quote:

They arose in response to our pressence why is it inconcievable that if we leave they will feel that they have accomplished thir goal?

See my post #2 and especially #10 in this thread.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 8:08:03 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

to penetrate the fog of our sources of public information and propaganda


Why use that tone Vince... there is no propaganda... at least in the sense of deceiving the public... The media view is guided by the point of view of the public... All reporting even by the most even handed and fair minded news services are always filtered through the point of view of the country it is presented in... Calling propaganda is not fair at all.

Butch

I think it is safe to say the news we have been presented has favored the Israelis and painted the Palestinians as irrational and violent while barely explaining the religious fervor behind the Settlement movement, and the activities of the IDF in the West Bank. We hear very little about the lives of the Palestinian people. When is the last time you have seen an open discussion on our television with Palestinians giving their own pov? I don't recall any, Butch.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 8:11:41 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		NM

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/19/2013 8:12:22 PM >

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 8:28:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't... they have reported fairly and completely... just not the way you want to hear it reported. The details are the same as reported say on the BBC but arranged in way that matches the view point of the majority of viewers...as all news media do anywhere in the world.

There is no intent to deceive the American people... that would be propaganda.

ps ... now we may be fooling ourselves but there is no third party controlling the media.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/19/2013 8:33:27 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/19/2013 10:20:58 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Vincent, it appears to me that there isn't any real divergence between our analyses. It's more a case of you focusing on the realpolitik of the situation as it currently stands, and my focusing on alternatives to it.

The slavish (and idiotic) position US politicians put themselves into over Israel is a source of universal despair. Obama will have a chance towards the end of his term to change the situation radically by simply doing nothing - for example, not opposing full UN membership for Palestine. Personally I think a clear signal like that from the US would be sufficient to stop the Israeli tail wagging the US dog. I believe that if the facts on the ground (sic!) were known to the American people there would be a radical change in attitudes fairly quickly. But that's a task for the US left and a big task too. Americans eventually saw through the propaganda, BS and lies over Vietnam and South Africa and there's no reason why those successes can't be repeated.

Given the current situation and trends though, there isn't much cause for optimism. The Palestinians inept leaders inspire zero confidence. Israel is likely to maintain its current course towards outright fascism (though ultimately that will be its downfall). The situation in Syria, where the West is supporting AQ-aligned jihadis simply to spite Iran, is verging on disastrous. Egypt is chaotic and Saudi Arabia remains locked in the middle ages. On its own, the sheer wretchedness of the current situation ought to be enough to alert us to the extent of current policy failure.

So, at a broader level, the stark choice facing the peoples of the West is: a continuation of the current never ending war, with concurrent damage from time to time as more terrorist outrages shake the West and thousands dying overseas or a change in policy that will bring about a resolution. To me it is utterly pointless, not to mention immoral, to continue with policies that do more to stoke the conflict than resolve it.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/19/2013 10:37:11 PM >

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 2:44:31 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't... they have reported fairly and completely... just not the way you want to hear it reported. The details are the same as reported say on the BBC but arranged in way that matches the view point of the majority of viewers...as all news media do anywhere in the world.

There is no intent to deceive the American people... that would be propaganda.

ps ... now we may be fooling ourselves but there is no third party controlling the media.

Butch

If anything the media is manipulated by the Palestinians. There is a very good documentary showing how they do it. It is quite revealing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 5:33:20 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't... they have reported fairly and completely... just not the way you want to hear it reported. The details are the same as reported say on the BBC but arranged in way that matches the view point of the majority of viewers...as all news media do anywhere in the world.

There is no intent to deceive the American people... that would be propaganda.

ps ... now we may be fooling ourselves but there is no third party controlling the media.

Butch

Butch, you don't see the contradiction? "Fairly and completely but arranged to match the viewpoint of the majority?" What is fair about omitting the minority viewpoint? And how is the majority viewpoint formulated anyway?

Think back to 2003 and the run up to our invasion of Iraq as an example. What part of the media opposed the impending war? Remember the wrath brought against the Dixie Chicks, Bill Maher, Sean Penn, and others? A case study in media steamrolling public opinion.

"Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

There is very little exposure in our news media to the humanity and suffering of the Palestinian people. Do a search on "Palestinian olive trees destroyed." You will find plenty of stories listed. Not one in the first five pages I looked at was from a major US media source. Propaganda by omission, clearly.


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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 5:41:46 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

If anything the media is manipulated by the Palestinians. There is a very good documentary showing how they do it. It is quite revealing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

I don't doubt for a minute that Hamas tries to influence world opinion and is sometimes successful. They would be foolish not to try. On balance tho the Israelis have been far more successful in the US media.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 7:09:08 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Vincent, it appears to me that there isn't any real divergence between our analyses. It's more a case of you focusing on the realpolitik of the situation as it currently stands, and my focusing on alternatives to it.

Yes, we agree on the ideal, Tweakabelle.

quote:

Given the current situation and trends though, there isn't much cause for optimism.

We agree here as well. Additionally, have a look at what is going on in Iraq.

quote:

So, at a broader level, the stark choice facing the peoples of the West is: a continuation of the current never ending war, with concurrent damage from time to time as more terrorist outrages shake the West and thousands dying overseas or a change in policy that will bring about a resolution. To me it is utterly pointless, not to mention immoral, to continue with policies that do more to stoke the conflict than resolve it.

More often than not there are internal forces that constrict choices. In any event, I don't think we can alter the course of Islamic world jihad except to fight it and destroy it one Mali and one Yemen and one Somalia at a time. Drip . . . Drip . . . Drip . . . I am very pessimistic.

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 8:52:28 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

to penetrate the fog of our sources of public information and propaganda


Why use that tone Vince... there is no propaganda... at least in the sense of deceiving the public... The media view is guided by the point of view of the public... All reporting even by the most even handed and fair minded news services are always filtered through the point of view of the country it is presented in... Calling propaganda is not fair at all.

Butch


Calling it propaganda is being charitable/

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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