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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 9:00:05 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If anything the media is manipulated by the Palestinians. There is a very good documentary showing how they do it. It is quite revealing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

I don't doubt for a minute that Hamas tries to influence world opinion and is sometimes successful. They would be foolish not to try. On balance tho the Israelis have been far more successful in the US media.


I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can. I really don't care how the story is worded. But you are right, they have to try.


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 9:23:15 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		quote]ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Expansion westward fom the original 13 states started before 1898.
War with the barbary states started before 1898.
The mexican american war started before 1898.
The u.s. has not always spaned the continent.



quote:

The Barbary events were rather singular and were to our east.


They were not a singular event and yes they were most definately to our east


quote:

They had plundered one of our ships in the harbor at Tripoli and held the crew hostage.


A little research could disabuse you of that opinion.
What would happen to n.korean comercial ship entering a u.s. harbor and refusing to pay the fees associated with that endeavor?


quote:

We were barely a nation.



According to the history books we had been a country for about thirty years and had "kicked the shit" out of the most powerful nation on the planet.


quote:

I think Teddy Roosevelt was our first international empire builder.


Since international does not mean extra-contenental:
Jefferson buying part of spain from france...louisiana
James madison uses force to acquire the independent country of w.fla.
J.q.adams with significant help from jackson...acquires fla. from spain
Polk takes texas,california and most everything in between.

Scallions, Cody (Fall). "The Rise and Fall of the Original Lone Star State: Infant American Imperialism Ascendant in West Florida". The Florida Historical Quarterly 90 (2): 193–220.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/20/2013 9:27:21 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 12:25:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

A little research could disabuse you of that opinion.
What would happen to n.korean comercial ship entering a u.s. harbor and refusing to pay the fees associated with that endeavor?

LMFAO!!!! Oh, how funny you can be! Look up the Treaty of Tripoli which the US ratified in 1797 and underwhich we were paying ransom money to the Muslims to protect our ships from their piracy.

"The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to submit to the Pasha's demands for increased payments. In the course of negotiating with the Barbary nations, each of the Barbary rulers continuously demanded increased payments to maintain peace, even while occasionally capturing U.S. ships. The Pasha of Tripoli was jealous of the ships the U.S. had recently given to Algeria, and demanded similar payment be made to him. On September 25, 1800, Tripoli captured the U.S. ship, Catherine, robbed the crew and plundered its cargo. The Pasha said this was a mistake and the captain responsible for the capture had been punished. Even so, the Pasha warned Cathcart that either the U.S. send additional payments, or the Pasha would declare war on U.S. vessels within six months."

You call that imperialist expansion by the US? Give us a break!!!

quote:

According to the history books we had been a country for about thirty years and had "kicked the shit" out of the most powerful nation on the planet.

Again ROFLMFAO!!! How amusing. You neglect to mention the French navy had Cornwall blockaded at Yorktown before Washington rushed south to fight one of the few battles we won in the Revolutionary War. We kicked the shit out of the most powerful nation in the world? Really? More accurately, the French saved our asses as part of their long war with Britain.

quote:

Since international does not mean extra-contenental:

Picky, picky, picky. But, I will concede that one if it makes you happy

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 12:43:40 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If anything the media is manipulated by the Palestinians. There is a very good documentary showing how they do it. It is quite revealing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

I don't doubt for a minute that Hamas tries to influence world opinion and is sometimes successful. They would be foolish not to try. On balance tho the Israelis have been far more successful in the US media.


I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can. I really don't care how the story is worded. But you are right, they have to try.


Yeh, history is filled with human atrocities. I don't mean to defend or apologise for any of them. I would not defend suicide bombing by anyone. Neither waterboarding nor secret prisons by my own righteous nation. Human history is full of uglies.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 2:11:58 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I would not defend suicide bombing by anyone.


Would "butch" o'hare qualify as a suicde bomber?

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 2:27:40 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

A little research could disabuse you of that opinion.
What would happen to n.korean comercial ship entering a u.s. harbor and refusing to pay the fees associated with that endeavor?

LMFAO!!!! Oh, how funny you can be! Look up the Treaty of Tripoli which the US ratified in 1797 and underwhich we were paying ransom money to the Muslims to protect our ships from their piracy.


Would you please post the part of that treaty says the u.s. was paying "ransome" for protection from "their piracy"

quote:

"The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to submit to the Pasha's demands for increased payments.


The port authority in the u.s. has the authority to adjust fees, but those arabs donot?

quote:

In the course of negotiating with the Barbary nations, each of the Barbary rulers continuously demanded increased payments to maintain peace, even while occasionally capturing U.S. ships. The Pasha of Tripoli was jealous of the ships the U.S. had recently given to Algeria, and demanded similar payment be made to him. On September 25, 1800, Tripoli captured the U.S. ship, Catherine, robbed the crew and plundered its cargo. The Pasha said this was a mistake and the captain responsible for the capture had been punished. Even so, the Pasha warned Cathcart that either the U.S. send additional payments, or the Pasha would declare war on U.S. vessels within six months."


Their country their territorial waters their business.
Note that britian, the greatest sea power in the world at that time, paid their rent.
Is it possible that there may be another interpretation of this incident besides the one you quote? Within our memory we have known "official" falsehoods such as the "tonkin gulf", "the lusitania...etc.

quote:

You call that imperialist expansion by the US? Give us a break!!!


Nope

quote:

According to the history books we had been a country for about thirty years and had "kicked the shit" out of the most powerful nation on the planet.


quote:


Again ROFLMFAO!!! How amusing. You neglect to mention the French navy had Cornwall blockaded at Yorktown before Washington rushed south to fight one of the few battles we won in the Revolutionary War. We kicked the shit out of the most powerful nation in the world? Really? More accurately, the French saved our asses as part of their long war with Britain.


You have read enough of my post to know that I am quite aware of the partculars of the revolution. Please note the quotation marks around the phrase "kicked the shit" etc.

quote:

Since international does not mean extra-contenental:

Picky, picky, picky. But, I will concede that one if it makes you happy


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/20/2013 2:29:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I would not defend suicide bombing by anyone.


I would.

If, and only if, it's actually suicide bombing.

Strapping a vest to a kid isn't suicide by the adult- the person with moral agency- it's sacrificing your kids. Now, that does send a strong message of various sorts, both about the level of desperation and the commitment to an outcome, but it isn't suicide bombing, and it isn't okay unless the kid would've died anyway (e.g. due to starvation, genocide or the like). That cannot be considered suicide bombing in any case, though, for the simple reason that a kid isn't an adult; the adult makes the decision in practice. Kids with bomb vests were encountered in other wars, too, by the way, such as Vietnam.

When adults, in command of their own faculties, strap a bomb to themselves and use it to attack an enemy, that at least has the same willingness to sacrifice we see in the non-violent analogues (e.g. the civil rights movement had several people that chose to go to jail as part of their civil disobedience), and it meets the standard of reciprocality (i.e. don't kill unless you're willing to die to do it, as any killing you do should be worth your own life). Not a very effective tactic, but hardly high on the list in terms of being morally questionable (though, granted, that's a pretty long list).

My main criticism of suicide bombing is that the targets are often poorly chosen.

Of course, good targets are usually inaccessible.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 2:20:09 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can.


It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/21/2013 2:23:47 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 5:24:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

When adults, in command of their own faculties, strap a bomb to themselves and use it to attack an enemy, that at least has the same willingness to sacrifice we see in the non-violent analogues (e.g. the civil rights movement had several people that chose to go to jail as part of their civil disobedience), and it meets the standard of reciprocality (i.e. don't kill unless you're willing to die to do it, as any killing you do should be worth your own life). Not a very effective tactic, but hardly high on the list in terms of being morally questionable (though, granted, that's a pretty long list).

Which begs the question: In their belief system is it a sacrifice of this life or a pathway to a more rewarding life?

Additionally, what are we to make of self-immolition as a tactic of protest?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 6:50:29 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Perhaps the United States has no real choice in the matter. Maybe the war is being brought to the US.

On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi published extracts from Saif al-Adel's document "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[65][66] Abdel Bari Atwan summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages to rid the Ummah from all forms of oppression:
1.Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.


I think that's where the problem came in. The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 6:56:19 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Butch, you don't see the contradiction


No Vince I don’t… you always make simple things too complicated. Lets just take the following example…. Take two news organizations from different parts of the world. Both report a suicide bomber blows themselves up on a bus killing 50...truthfully reporting the facts of the incident. One organization reports a terrorists kills 50 innocents while the other reports a freedom fighter stuck a blow against oppression.

All the facts are there but you would not expect a Palestinian news organization to report the news in the same way as an Israeli organization.

It is not propaganda but a reflection of the majority thinking of the region.

You manage to have an alternate opinion than presented by main stream media and on some issues so do I. When enough of you or I have this alternate opinion then the media itself will reflect it. Things do change.

Alternate view points are published all the time In the US… They may not be the majority view but they are there and can be written and accessed freely. Try and write an alternate view point in Iran… or Egypt…or Saudis Arabia.

Just so long as the facts are presented then public opinion may or may not change and so will follow the media.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/21/2013 7:06:13 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:25:53 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can.


It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?

You cannot see the difference between intentionally turning children into instruments of murder and children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:32:06 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It has never been the job of the media to present JUST THE FACTS. Imagine the news in my area…Man shot three times in back on Newstead Ave. Thirty people pitched tents in public park…Conceal and carry election results negated by legislature.

Is the above news? Not hardly… the prevailing view point of our area will govern how these stories are explained and it should until that prevailing views change.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/21/2013 7:34:40 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:51:02 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So tragic... and its not as if Israel's enemies have not been trying to do the same to them. One day one side or the other will get smart and decide not to retaliate and continue the killing. Then gain the worlds sympathy and support and end this senseless killing.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:57:26 AM   
youdneverknowit


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		One of the great problems I have with mainstream news and much of alternative "truth" news is that so often the editorial rooms seek to forge public opinion on a myriad of issues, rather than report how the general population truly feels/thinks.

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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:59:20 AM   
youdneverknowit


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can.


It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?



VERY good point!

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 7:59:44 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:


It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?

You cannot see the difference between intentionally turning children into instruments of murder and children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations?


So there have been 1,500 odd cases of "children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations ........?" Does that include the dozens of kids deliberately shot to death for (allegedly) daring to throw stones at the IDF? Or the numerous kids deliberately shot for straying too close to the Gaza border while playing?

Not one of these killings has ever seen an IDF soldier charged with negligence let alone murder. If you are prepared to delude yourself that such killings are "tragic byproduct of military operations", then go for it. Not all of us share your fanatical devotion to the Zionist cause and some of us take a more realistic view.

How many dead children will it take before you accept that the IDF is one of the world's worst child abuse institutions? There are 1500 dead children, and thousands more wounded, crippled and/or tortured that say it is.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/21/2013 8:29:12 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 8:23:20 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

seek to forge public opinion


See I do not believe this is true... I do believe, as I have been saying, that news organizations will present and editorialize the news in away that appeals to their subscribers. It is up to you and I to decide, with the facts at hand, whether we agree. If enough of us don't they will quickly change their editorial direction.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to youdneverknowit)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 9:16:42 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Perhaps the United States has no real choice in the matter. Maybe the war is being brought to the US.

On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi published extracts from Saif al-Adel's document "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[65][66] Abdel Bari Atwan summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages to rid the Ummah from all forms of oppression:
1.Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.


I think that's where the problem came in. The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.


I don't think we should play the victim card here unless we are willing to accept responsibility for putting ourselves in a position to be provoked by having troops and CIA operations all over the globe. Not saying it was done willfully to expand empire . . . but certainly history will judge if we over-reacted to the threat of Communist aggression or if we didn't have sense enough to take our marbles and go home soon enough. Maybe neither was the case. I do recall the drawdown of military strength and the closing of bases during the Clinton administration. Perhaps then it was already too late. The first World Trade Center attack (the truck bombing) occurred in 1993. We were under seige before we could complete our withdrawal, if indeed we were going to withdraw. History confounds us with all the "ifs" don't it?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 9:32:16 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: youdneverknowit

One of the great problems I have with mainstream news and much of alternative "truth" news is that so often the editorial rooms seek to forge public opinion on a myriad of issues, rather than report how the general population truly feels/thinks.

Is it the role of journalism to report how the general population truly feels/thinks? Is it the role of journalism to coddle the people and make sure they are not discomfited? I thought that was what politicians did with all their poll sampling. Since when has journalism become so timid that it self-censors and fears to broadcast unpalatable news and opinion.

Let me answer my own question: since competition has been reduced by the corporatization and merger of media in America. Here is a story about how al-Jazeera English pulled a controversial opinion piece for fear it would jeapordize its entre into the American Cable news market after it purchased Current TV. It is a lengthy article but worth reading I think.

(in reply to youdneverknowit)
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