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[Poll]

Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor

He is a Hero

42% (17)

He is a Traitor

20% (8)

He is something in between

37% (15)

Total Votes : 40

(last vote on : 6/18/2013 7:07:55 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 9:11:48 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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There has been much discussion about Edward Snowden. I personally described him as a traitor and still believe he is exactly that even if he does not mean to be one. I had a hard time getting my reasons out but this morning I was watching Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer and in his editorial he described my feelings exactly.

HERE it is and I hope you watch it. Check out "Schieffer to Snowden...Come home"

I can also understand the point of those who believe he is a hero so there is no right or wrong in this poll. I am just curious about the overall opinion of our site on his actions.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2013 9:19:21 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

Post #: 1

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 9:23:01 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Neither. He's just a not very intelligent and naive kid.

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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 2

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 9:34:43 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I think it comes down to are we as a nation naïve. Do we think that a war…any war… can be fought without secrecy? Must we be privy to all secret operations that by there very nature MUST be secret in order to have any usefulness? What would that have meant during WWII…could we have won?

I think secrecy is essential but this secrecy must be tempered with checks and oversight of elected officials and be within our Constitution. I believe in this case that is exactly what is happening.

I would have nothing against whistle blowers exposing actions of or government that are illegal…against the Constitution, or even against our moral fiber as a nation. As an example I believe the water boarding of prisoners and holding them without due process is wrong if not exactly illegal.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2013 9:37:12 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 3

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 9:44:06 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

There is not enough information

And this is the catch 22... do they give up all the information and destroy an essential tool... or do they try to keep at least some secrets but continue the distrust of the government?

I don't think there is a good solution to this and that is why to me releasing the information by Snowden was a traitorous act even if that was not his intent. It really makes no difference what information is released now opinions are formed and there will be both the destruction of a tool keeping us safe AND distrust of our government.

Butch

OOOPS what happened to the Mods post?

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 4

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 9:49:44 AM

permbondagebabe

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline

I think water boarding is illegal, but I do not recall that any prisoner of war had the right for due process whilst the fight was going on. Keep in mind that if freed you would send them home and if it was a regular army, they go right back to the front. One could argue, if all of those were involved in the war, but that's a different question.

As for Snowden, I think he did the right thing and I am stunned that not more do the same. Be that Government or Private organizations.
The whole loan and banking sector is full of people taking advantage of others by questionable means. I agree that some secrecy is needed, but who would be so naive not to think that NSA would tap the lines? The question is if they doing in a big fishing game or restricted to certain cases. Here we have the right to privacy and due process, reasonable search etc. Fundamental american values that we learned in WWII America has given a damn about when it came to the Japanese-American. Thus it is reasonable to ask, if the lesson was learned or tossed out the window.

As the past has shown in the Boston case, the guys were under surveilance, but someone was sleeping. Perhaps the fishing game is collecting so much stuff, that people are simply overwhelmed.

Final point: Just because something is the Law doesn't make it just and right.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 5

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 10:58:28 AM

descrite

Posts: 459
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

Do we think that a war…any war… can be fought without secrecy?

Yes. Plenty of wars can. Ghandi gave the British government foreknowledge of every tactic and plan in his campaign, and he still won.

The Cold War was not fought with any secrecy between the combatants: Ames and Hansen saw to our side revealing everything, and Operation Ivy Bells let us know all theirs...the only secrets kept in many wars have been from the populace of the government acting secrecy. To be clear: the government keeps secrets from its own people, not the enemy.

That's fucked up. That needs to end. Really, secrecy has outlived its utility, and has become the loss of the war itself, instead of a tactic. Everyone knows how to make a nuke-- not everyone can. Yet. Protecting those "secrets" causes more harm than the release might be.

Terrorists can only kill and maim me. My government took my civil rights. Guess who I hate and fear more.

(in reply to permbondagebabe)

Post #: 6

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 11:04:25 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Does anyone find it odd- that thus far- he has not retained legal council?

(in reply to descrite)

Post #: 7

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 11:24:19 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

speaking about "consequences",.. what consequences does this Schieffer feel the US govt should get for its secret hacking of China while as they are doing this, they are publically claiming China is hacking the US & calling for China to stop? and then publically threatening to start a cyberwar, which they have been actually doing for years now..

see, I feel his call for Snowden to "come home, face the consequences" is not exactly fair when the govt doesnt play by those rules in the first place.. seriously, wtf would Snowden come back?

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 8

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 12:01:57 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

The Cold War was not fought with any secrecy

I can see you did not live through it

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to descrite)

Post #: 9

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 12:03:17 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

secret hacking of China

Not so secret if you know it don't ya think.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 10

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 12:22:42 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The Cold War was not fought with any secrecy

I can see you did not live through it

Butch

Well I lived through the majority of it and as far as I can tell, just about everybody, except the general populace of the USA and Russia (as it was then) knew everything that was going on - who said what, where and when; what actions and counter-actions were done by whom and for what reason etc etc.
It was even broadcast on the news here what conversations were gleaned by tapping and what the various spies were doing. lol.

So no, it was never any secret to the rest of the world.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 11

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 1:15:38 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

secret hacking of China

Not so secret if you know it don't ya think.

Butch

not so secret today.. that was some of the info released recently by Snowden when the Chinese dude was in town and him n Obama were chit-chatting over din-din.. Obama was acting like the US was all lily white & so innocent of wrong-doing and outraged over China's hacking.. Snowden showed what a liar he was.. The only constant in politics is if their lips are movin' they are lyin'..
Just sayin'

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 12

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 1:36:08 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I know one secret too...and that is you nor I have any idea how many secrets there are....and never will...and do not need to know either.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 13

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 1:43:21 PM

KittyDeVille

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline

They (government) dont fear terrorists, if they could use the terrorists actions for their own good, they would. They fear loss of power and numbers, the 7 billion.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 14

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 1:54:06 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

they

They are we... we elect them

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to KittyDeVille)

Post #: 15

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 2:01:50 PM

KittyDeVille

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline

We isnt me. I always elect the opposition, for the critical view on the governing party.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 16

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 2:43:20 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

One's answer to this pole may depend upon whether or not one thinks truth...is treason.

If it is treason then why wasn't this also treason in 2006 ? Why wasn't the 'Pentagon Papers' treason and why did a judge rule no law violated by their release ?

The whole debate is ridiculous given the history of govt. surveillance and for 30 years. As far as I am concerned, it is as likely a CIA or repub plot to further discredit Obama in particular and dem rule in general and to keep the people in fear.

(in reply to KittyDeVille)

Post #: 17

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 2:50:09 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Does anyone find it odd- that thus far- he has not retained legal council?

The partisans have already suggested he is going to be paid or already on retainer to the Chinese and will spill the beans to them. Just what beans he has...they don't say.

The Chinese are already eavesdropping on everything American that they can and I don't know how simply the discovery of this surveillance would help them at all.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 3:24:38 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

One's answer to this pole may depend upon whether or not one thinks truth...is treason.

The telling of many different truths during a conflict would be treason. Truth has nothing to do with it. If you told an enemy the name of a spy it would be the truth...but still treason. If you tell the enemy how to avoid detection it is the truth and also treason. There is no whistle to blow in this case because no laws or the Constitution have been broken...at least at this time. As Bob Schieffer said, and I agree, that if he had stood up for his beliefs and stayed the course I would still think he was mistaken but would have had respect for him. But running away to China, of all nations, shows he is a traitor or coward...but of course my opinion and I thank you for yours.

As I said...no right or wrong judgment by me of the posters to this thread... just opinion on Mr. Snowden.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2013 3:28:57 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 19

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 3:40:02 PM

permbondagebabe

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline

if memory serves be right, many people and politicians left their countries during WWII and created exile Governments.
In the end, due to the victory, they were put in power. The question can be asked, if the handling of the american government and judiciary is truly in the best interest of the people. of course this is a far fetched example, but why assume what america does is morally just and right and wouldn't turn out to be war crimes and crimes against humanity? just because we have bigger guns right now?

none of us will ever know the answer to that question, cause we are dead by then.

if we had a government for the people, by the people things like the Kennedy etc wouldn't need to be a state secret for so many years.

the moment we stop question the ligitimacy of your government action and not scrutinize everything, we lose what we apparently cherrish. our democracy. only informed people can make informed decisions on a ballot. otherwise you may just toss everything out the window.

in the beginning of our republic there were great discussions, fundamental questions were raised.

today you are told to shut up.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 20

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