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RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 9:27:58 PM

njlauren

Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not up for page long dissertations.
I want to know if what Phydeaux said/in post #54 SPECIFICALLY/ related to black unemployment is true and can be verified by data.

Seriously, njlauren--are you saying that hundreds and thousands are not competing for a handful of jobs or not?

I like to get to the facts sometimes.

Are you saying there are plenty of jobs out here for everyone?

No, I am not, but the reality of illegal immigrants is many of those jobs are at such a low level of pay that no one else will take them, to take those jobs the illegal immigrants live in ways people wouldn't want to do. In construction a lot of the laborers now are illegals making 8 bucks an hour, and that has displaced jobs, but that trend was happening already for a long time, as construction became more and more non union, construction firms were hiring people at low wages and no benefits.

To be honest, I am a lot more concerned about legal immigration in the form of H1 Visas , that is basically a high tech indentured servitude and Indian jobs bill. In the current immigration law they want to double the number of those visas, and they have most definitely hurt US workers, it has depressed wages in the tech industry according to Harvard Business Review, and has caused kids to stay away from those fields, knowing they will be competing against third world labor markets, since India basically cannot produce jobs for its people, it exports them.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 61

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 9:33:14 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

No, I am not, but the reality of illegal immigrants is many of those jobs are at such a low level of pay that no one else will take them, to take those jobs the illegal immigrants live in ways people wouldn't want to do. In construction a lot of the laborers now are illegals making 8 bucks an hour, and that has displaced jobs, but that trend was happening already for a long time, as construction became more and more non union, construction firms were hiring people at low wages and no benefits.

I disagree with this, in most but not all situations.

To be honest, I am a lot more concerned about legal immigration in the form of H1 Visas , that is basically a high tech indentured servitude and Indian jobs bill. In the current immigration law they want to double the number of those visas, and they have most definitely hurt US workers, it has depressed wages in the tech industry according to Harvard Business Review, and has caused kids to stay away from those fields, knowing they will be competing against third world labor markets, since India basically cannot produce jobs for its people, it exports them.

I disagree with a lot of what you state in the first paragraph.
There are plenty of unemployed adults that are willing to take
ANY job that they can get.

1100 apply for 65 WalMart jobs

WalMart pays around $8 or a little more don't they?
WalMart is hardly known for paying high wages.

I could post 1000 links but whats the point, people have their minds made up, despite the facts.
We have millions of unemployed people, from 16-75 that have a strong work ethic, and would take any job that they could get to feed their families.

I am not saying we should "get rid" of undocumented workers, but I am saying that they contribute to higher levels of unemployment for American citizens, and to say otherwise is really not being honest.
Thanks for responding.

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 9:48:40 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to njlauren)

Post #: 62

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 9:48:40 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Marini

Both remittances and foreign direct investment are well off the highs reached before the recession, $26 billion in 2007 and $27 billion in 2008, respectively.

The cash sent back to Mexican families totaled just $22.4 billion in 2012, down 1.6 percent in dollar terms from the previous year (partly due to an appreciating peso), or up less than 1 percent in pesos adjusted for inflation. By comparison, foreign direct investment last year isn’t likely to reach the $20 billion mark, compared with $20.4 billion a year earlier.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/global-observer/slow-us-growth-zero-immigration-hurt-remittances-to-mexico/9904

Thus far, total remittances in 2012 amount to about $17.2 billion, according to the Mexican central bank.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/11/mexico-immigrants-remittances.html

Remittances are a larger part of the Mexican economy than tourism expenditures and represented 2.1 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.

2004 report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico#Remittances

Our analysis suggests that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost a full percentage point.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w12518

quote:

Regarding my point about the differences between illegal aliens and migration - this source: http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=931 points out that between 40 and 60% of illegal aliens returned to mexico. (calculate by looking at outflow vs inflows). It is so common that it has a name: reverse migration or sojourners.

I cannot find any support for this. Considering approximately 12 million illegal immigrants live in the US.

The source he gives...

http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=931

.. claims....

The immigrant population in 2011 — estimated at 40.4 million — is a historical numeric high for the country, and it is also the largest in the world. About 20 percent of all international migrants reside in the United States, which accounts for less than 5 percent of the world's population.

The 40.4 million includes legal as well as illegal.

The information at that site doesnt differentiate between those who are here legally, working or studying, who return and those who are here illegally returning.

Dont know if any of this helps.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 63

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 9:49:44 PM

Marini

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Joined: 2/14/2010
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It does not help what I am specifically discussing, thank you.

I am concerned about millions of unemployed American citizens unable to find jobs.

I want someone to address, what I am specifically talking about.
*His "facts" may not be accurate, but record number REAL unemployment is a fact.

65 jobs 1,100 applicants, and similar situations, please explain how adding millions of low skilled workers is going to improve the situation for lower skilled unemployed workers, that must compete for these same jobs.

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 10:33:33 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 64

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:01:19 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

~FR

I found this in the Business Insider....

http://www.businessinsider.com/illegal-immigrants-deported-2012-1?op=1

Also....

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2013/01/28/21-Surprising-Facts-About-Illegal-Immigration.aspx#page1

Take what you will from each of those, but they are all good reads.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 65

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:04:35 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

tazzy, we can go all night with links, but I have to go to bed.
If you feel there are "plenty" of jobs for everyone, that is surely your right.
Nothing I have read has changed my mind.

Forbes--Less educated are hardest hit with job loss

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 10:05:33 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 66

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:04:40 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

It does not help what I am specifically discussing, thank you.

My topic is millions of unemployed American citizens unable to find jobs.

I want someone to address, what I am specifically talking about.
*His "facts" may not be accurate, but record number REAL unemployment is a fact.

65 jobs 1,100 applicants, and similar situations, please explain how adding millions of low skilled workers is going to improve the situation for lower skilled unemployed workers, that must compete for these same jobs.

We arent adding them, they are already here. Many are leaving or have left due to the economy, but the exodus is trickling down. The numbers have been steady since 2007, for the most part, peaking at around 12 million then tapering back down a bit.

I understand your frustration. There is also the belief that if all 11.7 million go home, there will be less demand for some services and goods, resulting in closure to businesses, not to mention those businesses the illegals themselves run.

Its a catch 22.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 67

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:05:39 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

tazzy, we can go all night with links, but I have to go to bed.

Forbes--Less educated are hardest hit with job loss

Wow, you think I am supporting them being here?

Maybe you are a bit too close to this topic.

Sweet dreams.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 68

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:06:51 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

I am not "frustrated", I am concerned.
I did not say you supported them.

Why is when people discuss topics, you must be for or against someone?

I am not against anyone, and I am not saying we should send undocumented workers home.

I am saying, we have some very serious issues going on, and I do not see the unemployment situaton for millons of workers improving.

Many college educated students can't even get the "stop gap" jobs they used to get.
I remember years ago, many college graduates taking any job they could get until they could get a job in their field.
Not so easy these days!

CNN Money-- College grads Class of 2013 face grim job prospects

Its not every day, you can actually watch events happening, I am never going to say, "I didnt see what is coming, coming."

It's just not getting "better" or easier for millions of people to find ANY JOB, and that is a fact.

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 10:22:37 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 69

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:08:12 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I see it coming... saw it a long time ago... and no one did anything. Its like turning the faucet off after the tidal wave hits.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 70

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:13:06 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I see it coming... saw it a long time ago... and no one did anything. Its like turning the faucet off after the tidal wave hits.

Its going to get far worse, you aint seen nothing yet.

BTO-- You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet

I pray for this country, on a regular basis.
Peace

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 10:20:45 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 71

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:17:28 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w12518

quote:

Regarding my point about the differences between illegal aliens and migration - this source: http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=931 points out that between 40 and 60% of illegal aliens returned to mexico. (calculate by looking at outflow vs inflows). It is so common that it has a name: reverse migration or sojourners.

I cannot find any support for this. Considering approximately 12 million illegal immigrants live in the US.

As I said in my original quote - compare the out rates of migration for mexico 5.7 per thousand, with the inrates 3.7 per thousand. The author says that the inrates of mexican immigration are essentially all returning emigres.. The numbers vary per year, but 3.7 / 5.7 is roughly 60%.

People treat the number of illegal aliens in the united states as a static number, which of course it is not. It is an equilibrium.

the number of illegals is equal (more or less) to the current number of illegals - minus the deportees, minus the returning immigrants, plus new illegal immigration, minus deaths, minus legalized.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/11/2013 10:19:42 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 72

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:22:01 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

As I said in my original quote - compare the out rates of migration for mexico 5.7 per thousand, with the inrates 3.7 per thousand. The author says that the inrates of mexican immigration are essentially all returning emigres.. The numbers vary per year, but 3.7 / 5.7 is roughly 60%.

And as I said there is no way of telling how many of those are illegally here.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 73

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 10:58:27 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

My eyes, my eyes!
Many around here are extremely long winded.

I must skim most of the posts, I often REFUSE to spend 10 minutes reading 1 post, in order to "get the message".

Please trim the quotes!!

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/11/2013 11:00:30 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 74

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/11/2013 11:06:18 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

Marini,

If you are willing to do the research there are lots of cites and case studies that show that excess labor migration depresses wages. More or less it goes back to the law of supply and demand. The more labor supply you have the cheaper labor will be.

Dumping huge numbers of unskilled laborers depresses entry level wages. Dumping huge amounts of H1 visa's depresses technical/professional wages.
Its the same reason why the ama limits med school scholarships - to keep the wages of doctors high.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 75

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/12/2013 7:40:35 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The cash sent back to Mexican families

something I want to point out.. money sent back to mexico helps to keep potential immigrants there, instead of them forced by economic conditions to come to the US.. and also, the better the Mexician economy itself improves, less will move to the US.. Mexico too has an immigration problem, cuz people from even poorer countries move there to work illegally..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 76

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/12/2013 7:45:52 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

My eyes, my eyes!
Many around here are extremely long winded.

I must skim most of the posts, I often REFUSE to spend 10 minutes reading 1 post, in order to "get the message".

Please trim the quotes!!

On this we agree. It is cumbersome and unnecessary to include all the previous posting in a massive quote.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 77

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/12/2013 8:07:36 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Many college educated students can't even get the "stop gap" jobs they used to get.
I remember years ago, many college graduates taking any job they could get until they could get a job in their field.
Not so easy these days!

I think a big part of that is that the boomers are starting to retire,.. so future jobs are gonna be in different fields, like healthcare and home care.. the bulge as boomers went thru life has had a dramatic effect on the economy, car makers had to build cars for them when they hit driving age, now not so much.. and yes, when i was a kid, finding a job was easy cuz the economy was on an upswing & expanding due to the boomers moving thru their life cycle..

You are already hearing about shortages in construction (at least in certain areas).. that was predicted several years ago.. cuz workers that did construction had to find other industries to work in and are now no longer available to fill jobs.. maybe some of those kids that went to college should have instead gone to trade school and become a plumber or electrician, etc.. So it depends what someone took at college as to how valuable they are to an employer.. Even back when I was a kid, lots of other kids got useless degrees and so had a hard time finding a job in that field..

A kid could make themselves more valuable simply by learning another language.. someone that can speak and write both english and spanish would make them more valuable (to someone like me).. so Snowden didnt have a degree, but he still got a $120+k job cuz he was good at computers and hacking.. To get a better job, you need to offer potential employers more than your competition.. a degree sometimes doesnt matter or matters less.. and in the case of immigrants, many that dont even speak english, its that they will work hard and do good work.. whereas a soft, less determined person cant or wont.. so if an employee is more productive, they are more valuable to an employer & more likely to be the one hired..

eta- and I agree with what Lookie said in his post 36- http://www.collarchat.com/m_4490420/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#4493180

< Message edited by tj444 -- 7/12/2013 8:12:56 AM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 78

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/12/2013 8:33:04 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Vincent I'm going to try to tone down the rhetoric a bit, because I think you actually are trying to have a cogent discussion here. And I actually think that we agree on a few things.

One of points were that illegal aliens come for money, and frequently expect to return to their native countries. As you say - circular immigration or as I said, sojourners etc. I said that studies therefore that compared immigrants to illegal aliens were comparing apples and oranges on their face. Immigrants stay and put down roots. They learn the language, start new businesses. These things do not translate usefully to illegal aliens.

Dawg

. . . . I am all for toning down the rhetoric, especially keeping words like "ignorance" out of the discourse.

I submit the reason we cannot come to terms on this issue is because we are talking about two different groups of illegal immigrants. Your definition seems focused on the itinerant agricultural worker or "pick-up" construction day laborer. My focus is on the families of illegal immigrants who have settled into communities and raised children who have graduated high school and even university. These illegals have been here for a decade or more and have put down roots in their neighborhood. You are under the erroneous belief that only legals have put down roots. The bill approved by the Senate focuses on a pathway to productive citizenship for the established illegals and their children, not for the nomads you keep referring to.

Illegal immigrants who have been long settled and productive in their communities spend money, pay taxes, and contribute to our economy. They and their children have assimilated into American culture. You have made no case that these folks should be deported. So, please do explain why we should deport a family of illegals who own a home, have productive jobs, have children graduated from our schools and are well assimilated into our culture, and have been here for twenty years . . . . if you can.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 79

RE: We must get rid of illegal immigrants! - 7/12/2013 11:54:17 AM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Vincent I'm going to try to tone down the rhetoric a bit, because I think you actually are trying to have a cogent discussion here. And I actually think that we agree on a few things.

One of points were that illegal aliens come for money, and frequently expect to return to their native countries. As you say - circular immigration or as I said, sojourners etc. I said that studies therefore that compared immigrants to illegal aliens were comparing apples and oranges on their face. Immigrants stay and put down roots. They learn the language, start new businesses. These things do not translate usefully to illegal aliens.

Dawg . . . . I am all for toning down the rhetoric, especially keeping words like "ignorance" out of the discourse.

I submit the reason we cannot come to terms on this issue is because we are talking about two different groups of illegal immigrants. Your definition seems focused on the itinerant agricultural worker or "pick-up" construction day laborer. My focus is on the families of illegal immigrants who have settled into communities and raised children who have graduated high school and even university. These illegals have been here for a decade or more and have put down roots in their neighborhood. You are under the erroneous belief that only legals have put down roots. The bill approved by the Senate focuses on a pathway to productive citizenship for the established illegals and their children, not for the nomads you keep referring to.

Illegal immigrants who have been long settled and productive in their communities spend money, pay taxes, and contribute to our economy. They and their children have assimilated into American culture. You have made no case that these folks should be deported. So, please do explain why we should deport a family of illegals who own a home, have productive jobs, have children graduated from our schools and are well assimilated into our culture, and have been here for twenty years . . . . if you can.

To the contrary. You quoted a bunch of statistics saying that immigration boosts the economy. My entire point (initially) was that you can not use studies of immigration and say they necessarily relevent to illegal aliens. The two circumstances are widely different.

As I pointed out - much of the benefit of immigration occurs when the immigrants put down roots, raise a family. Many of the illegal aliens have done that. However, as indicated previously, many of the illegal aliens (half?) have no intention of setting down roots and are here merely for the money.

I showed that immigration has a substantial impact on wages, and a substantial impact on minority wages in particular.

I do not have to advance a position to contest yours -but since you asked:

We legalized 11 million illegal aliends in 1986. We were promised border security to follow. Twenty years pass and once again we are faced with the promise - legalize 11 million more - and this time we really mean it - border security will follow.

Sorry. I see no obligation for the house to pick up the senate bill. The left says amnesty is popular - so it is. But whats even more popular is border security.
Fixing the issue on border security allows the issue on amnesty to be debated separately. How long before a terrorist slips across the southern border. Got news for you its already happened. How long before a disaster happens.. dont know.

But I think the republicans have a winning strategy. They can simply say - last time we put amnesty before security - and it never happened. Lets take care of the unresolved security issue - and then have the political debate on paths to residency.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 80

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