RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case.

RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 5:27:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun And the evidence is quite consistent in every respect that the gun was holstered until the last moment before firing, as a last resort after George screamed for help for nearly a minute. No physical evidence exists for either of those claims. Sorry but unless someone filmed it there would not be. There is but one thing that would indicate the gun was out. Serious case of believe whatever I have to for Zimmerman to be guilty. Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. Lack of Trayvon's prints or DNA on the gun + Rachel never hearing Trayvon mention a gun ( and she said its her opinion George hadn't pulled it out prior to being punched) = evidence consistent with the gun being holstered until the last moment before firing. You call that evidence? Do you have any idea what evidence is? DNA and print tests on the gun = evidence. W8's sworn testimony = evidence. Both were given to the jury as evidence to deliberate with.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 12:34:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun DNA and print tests on the gun = evidence. W8's sworn testimony = evidence. Both were given to the jury as evidence to deliberate with. A lack of something is not evidence and no amount of fingerprinting and DNA testing would ever show when a weapon was removed from its holster.

Raiikun -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 12:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun DNA and print tests on the gun = evidence. W8's sworn testimony = evidence. Both were given to the jury as evidence to deliberate with. A lack of something is not evidence and no amount of fingerprinting and DNA testing would ever show when a weapon was removed from its holster. I listed actual evidence. I drew conclusions that are consistent with that evidence. You're attacking my conclusions claiming they aren't evidence....well, no duh, I never claimed they were. Try and keep up.

BamaD -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 7:16:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun And the evidence is quite consistent in every respect that the gun was holstered until the last moment before firing, as a last resort after George screamed for help for nearly a minute. No physical evidence exists for either of those claims. Sorry but unless someone filmed it there would not be. There is but one thing that would indicate the gun was out. Serious case of believe whatever I have to for Zimmerman to be guilty. Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. And yet while he is using the lack of evidence to say there is no reason to say something happened you are trying to pretend that it proves it did, because you want to believe it. One piece of evidence for the gun being holstered , Martin would have had to have been a moron to attack a man holding a gun on him.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:21:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun And the evidence is quite consistent in every respect that the gun was holstered until the last moment before firing, as a last resort after George screamed for help for nearly a minute. No physical evidence exists for either of those claims. Sorry but unless someone filmed it there would not be. There is but one thing that would indicate the gun was out. Serious case of believe whatever I have to for Zimmerman to be guilty. Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. And yet while he is using the lack of evidence to say there is no reason to say something happened you are trying to pretend that it proves it did, because you want to believe it. One piece of evidence for the gun being holstered , Martin would have had to have been a moron to attack a man holding a gun on him. No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure.

truckinslave -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:25:15 PM)
quote: The testimony of people in a fight seldom matches what happened, not because they, lie but because it gets jumbled. In ... 1985?...I was peripherally involved in a street fight in Atlanta between a half-dozen men and women leaving a bar at closing time and 3 or 4 men who turned out to be members of the Atlanta PD "Red Dog" squad (they specialized in public-housing narcotics busts. They basically were caged and fed red meat all week, then were released to fight on the weekend). We lost the fight. We filed complaints. Another man and I wrote witness statements as soon as he made bail (I was not arrested); then got everyone else to do the same. He and I reviewed them before turning them into whatever Atlanta called Internal Affairs. Not one of us saw everything. That was to be expected; we all had our personal situations to concentrate on. Each of us saw some of the things done to, and done by, our friends. Again, not unexpected. What was surprising, though, was that we all had a different sequence for the events we saw. The timeline got all screwed up. The cops understood all that and wound up firing these guys and dropping charges. Red Dog was abandoned not too long afterwards.

truckinslave -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:32:01 PM)
quote: Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. Well..... There was ample testimony that Z yelled for help (the most unsettling testimony was from TM's father, who said he listened to the tape multiple times (was it him or the detective or both who said he listened to it 20 times?) before determining it was TM screaming? If you thought that was your child, screaming and dying, would you listen to it 20 times? He was a defense witness). And, if reason is evidence, if logic and/or common sense count for anything, the gun surely wasn't out of the holster long.

BamaD -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:33:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun And the evidence is quite consistent in every respect that the gun was holstered until the last moment before firing, as a last resort after George screamed for help for nearly a minute. No physical evidence exists for either of those claims. Sorry but unless someone filmed it there would not be. There is but one thing that would indicate the gun was out. Serious case of believe whatever I have to for Zimmerman to be guilty. Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. And yet while he is using the lack of evidence to say there is no reason to say something happened you are trying to pretend that it proves it did, because you want to believe it. One piece of evidence for the gun being holstered , Martin would have had to have been a moron to attack a man holding a gun on him. No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure. Maybe it was an alien abduction. There is no proof it wasn't. We will never know for sure. If Martin didn't see the gun it still comes down to Martin would be alive if he hadn't attacked Zimmerman. You think film represents reality in these things? That explains a lot.

truckinslave -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:35:27 PM)
quote: The prosecutor over ruled him for an unknown reason. Ever heard of insufficient evidence? That's alright. Neither had Angela Corey.

BamaD -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 8:37:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun DNA and print tests on the gun = evidence. W8's sworn testimony = evidence. Both were given to the jury as evidence to deliberate with. A lack of something is not evidence and no amount of fingerprinting and DNA testing would ever show when a weapon was removed from its holster. And yet you use that same lack of evidence to back your claim, Raikun's argument is backed logic yours by emotion.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 11:29:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure. Maybe it was an alien abduction. There is no proof it wasn't. We will never know for sure. If Martin didn't see the gun it still comes down to Martin would be alive if he hadn't attacked Zimmerman. You think film represents reality in these things? That explains a lot. Read the post again. I said Zimmerman, the wannabe cop, might have been carrying his weapon held behind him as he had seen in many movies and TV. It still comes down to this Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman wasn't such a pants pissing coward that his only response to losing a mild fist fight was using a gun. And please stop with the "it was a severe beating" crap. I doubt there are many adult males, except for the exceptionally pampered, who have never received worse injuries in a fist fight and the vast bulk of us never felt it necessary to kill the other guy.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/22/2013 11:31:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: The testimony of people in a fight seldom matches what happened, not because they, lie but because it gets jumbled. In ... 1985?...I was peripherally involved in a street fight in Atlanta between a half-dozen men and women leaving a bar at closing time and 3 or 4 men who turned out to be members of the Atlanta PD "Red Dog" squad (they specialized in public-housing narcotics busts. They basically were caged and fed red meat all week, then were released to fight on the weekend). We lost the fight. We filed complaints. Another man and I wrote witness statements as soon as he made bail (I was not arrested); then got everyone else to do the same. He and I reviewed them before turning them into whatever Atlanta called Internal Affairs. Not one of us saw everything. That was to be expected; we all had our personal situations to concentrate on. Each of us saw some of the things done to, and done by, our friends. Again, not unexpected. What was surprising, though, was that we all had a different sequence for the events we saw. The timeline got all screwed up. The cops understood all that and wound up firing these guys and dropping charges. Red Dog was abandoned not too long afterwards. And that is to be expected. But the subject is one man who claimed he had no choice but to shoot and kill another human being for two mutually exclusive reasons.

Raiikun -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 12:27:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun And the evidence is quite consistent in every respect that the gun was holstered until the last moment before firing, as a last resort after George screamed for help for nearly a minute. No physical evidence exists for either of those claims. Sorry but unless someone filmed it there would not be. There is but one thing that would indicate the gun was out. Serious case of believe whatever I have to for Zimmerman to be guilty. Raikun claimed the evidence was consistent with the gun being holstered until just before firing and that Zimmerman yelled for help. There is no evidence for or against those claims which is what I said. And yet while he is using the lack of evidence to say there is no reason to say something happened you are trying to pretend that it proves it did, because you want to believe it. One piece of evidence for the gun being holstered , Martin would have had to have been a moron to attack a man holding a gun on him. No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure. No, we don't know for a fact that George lied about the encounter. That claim is a fabrication.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 4:34:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: The prosecutor over ruled him for an unknown reason. Ever heard of insufficient evidence? That's alright. Neither had Angela Corey. How could the prosecutor possibly have known how much evidence existed a few hours after the incident? Before the autopsy? Before a full canvas had been done? Before the victim had been identified? Before any forensic tests had been completed?

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 4:35:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure. No, we don't know for a fact that George lied about the encounter. That claim is a fabrication. Then you're back to Martin having at least 4 arms.

truckinslave -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 6:38:09 AM)
quote: How could the prosecutor possibly have known how much evidence existed a few hours after the incident? Before the autopsy? Before a full canvas had been done? Before the victim had been identified? Before any forensic tests had been completed? He could not possibly have known how much evidence would come out in the fullness of time. What he could know that night, and what he obviously did know that night, is something you still do not know: there was insufficient evidence to convict GZ. Of anything. Not even close.

BamaD -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 6:43:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: How could the prosecutor possibly have known how much evidence existed a few hours after the incident? Before the autopsy? Before a full canvas had been done? Before the victim had been identified? Before any forensic tests had been completed? He could not possibly have known how much evidence would come out in the fullness of time. What he could know that night, and what he obviously did know that night, is something you still do not know: there was insufficient evidence to convict GZ. Of anything. Not even close. The one thing the prosecution proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, was that they had no case.

truckinslave -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 6:48:29 AM)
quote: The one thing the prosecution proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, was that they had no case. Damdest case ever. Prosecution witness after prosecution witness making the case for the defense. Seriously bizarre.

BamaD -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 6:54:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No. I'm saying we don't know and that we know for a fact that Zimmerman lied about the encounter. As to Martin not attacking if he saw a gun, it was 7:15 Pm in February so it was pretty dark and if Zimmerman had pulled his weapon he could have been carrying it behind his body as I'm sure he'd seen tough guys do in movies and TV. We will never know for sure. No, we don't know for a fact that George lied about the encounter. That claim is a fabrication. Then you're back to Martin having at least 4 arms. Sometimes in these situations you feel like you are fighting Doctor Octopus.

DomKen -> RE: The REAL discrimination in the Zimmerman case. (7/23/2013 7:34:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: How could the prosecutor possibly have known how much evidence existed a few hours after the incident? Before the autopsy? Before a full canvas had been done? Before the victim had been identified? Before any forensic tests had been completed? He could not possibly have known how much evidence would come out in the fullness of time. What he could know that night, and what he obviously did know that night, is something you still do not know: there was insufficient evidence to convict GZ. Of anything. Not even close. No. at the time what they had was a suspect whose statements didn't add up and a dead body. You can bet in most places that means a night in lockup at least.

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