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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 6:23:34 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Are we, meaning my friends, right about the problems of blacks not being our fault?


I think it's a mistake to frame the question that way. For about 13 years I lived in a mixed, Balto. City neighborhood on the border of a "bad neighborhood." I never saw the problem of crime as a "black" problem, I saw it as a class and background problem. Why would I want to taint all the great, interesting, and cool black people that I lived near and around with the broad brush of being a criminal?

I was lucky, b/c I lived in a mixed, urban neighborhood, I could see people as individuals. It was not an us v. them scenario.

All individuals can do is try to make their own area better. That is what I did.

We have since moved to a wealthy area of the city, and I'm less happy and more bored living here, albeit less worried about crime. I kind of miss the action and camaraderie of my old hood.

Were there things that were frustrating about the old hood? Absolutely. There were plenty of fuck-ups, drunks, and the rest.... but none of it made me feel I needed to buy a gun to protect myself or accost strangers asking them what they were up to.

Also, one year I taught middle school in a "bad" white neighborhood. All the kids in the school were low-income white kids. Their test scores were low. Fathers were absent from the home. Most everyone was on the school lunch program. It was a rough year. I learned one valuable lesson: the capacity for white people to be fucked up (if not more fucked up) is as deep and real as that of any other race.

Crime and drug problems are not race based.

I remember being at a school meeting with a parent of three kids. She was a waitress at IHOP. How on earth could that woman raise three kids on that salary? The school her kids went to (where I was teaching) was bad, not because of the teachers, but because all the kids were disadvantaged and they were several grade levels below their age in reading and math.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/21/2013 6:25:32 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 6:53:55 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Are we, meaning my friends, right about the problems of blacks not being our fault? I think not… as I’ve stated before the problems of many African Americans are systematic and have many origins and not so easy to fix…. But….there is no excuse not to support schools… keep children out of gangs and off the streets… support their local police…demand community action to stop the killing…in other words take responsibility of their own lives and stop blaming others for their problems.

For me, I have never been as interested in this question of "blame" and "vengeance" and "punishment" as Americans generally are. It's always been my opinion that if I were suddenly made emperor those thoughts were luxuries I could not afford. Rather, I want to know what we plan on doing about it? Yes, blacks commit a lot of crimes. Yes, that's because we've put them in a situation where "committing lots of crimes" makes a lot of sense. Good, now that we've figured out that we're all in this together and it's everyone's fault what should we do?

You got the conservatives who generally want to double down on guns & walls and let it go to bloodshed (witness pahunkboy right below you). You got the liberals who, near as I can tell, want to wish it all away. Nobody wants to grapple with the actual reality. To do that, someone would need to start right out with, "OK, we've been screwing you blacks over for 200 years..." and then have that conversation without guilt or finger pointing.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 7:22:26 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is of course merit in what you say...but as I've stated we have large populations of minorities that are just as poor that do not have the crime as in African American neighborhoods. I believe it is a way of looking at life that comes from past discrimination that is no longer as prevalent. They are like soldiers ducking at every loud noise when they are back home and safe. There is a mind set that all police and white people are out to get them and they would rather live with crime than point the criminals out to the police. They are seeing discrimination everywhere and at every turn when it is most often just life passing by.

Butch

I read about this one black man who the cops scooped up for murder.. they got a tip that he did it.. but he didnt fit the description of the killer, he never used the street name the killer used, he was shopping elsewhere when it occured but the cops charged him anyway, he spent 7 months in jail cuz he had no money for bail.. so he lost his job.. he lost his marriage.. he lost his little girl.. he lost everything (what little he had in the first place).. it took a trial and 2-1/2 years of hell for this wrongly accused man.. I suppose he should consider himself lucky cuz he could have been found guilty and spend decades in jail!.. dont give me the line of how the US justice system works as it should.. way too often it doesnt.. Do you think if this guy had put up a website asking for money to fund his defense that he would have gotten any donations? of course he was chucked in jail immediately and didnt get 45 days of freedom to set up a paypal account and beggar website.. I do believe this happens frequently but no one hears about them cuz no one wants to or gives a dam.. I cant blame black people for how they feel about how cops & the justice system treats them.. I believe injustice happens to them with greater frequency than other poor people..

Again, I am an outsider and from my observations,.. I have come to the conclusion that this country is batshite crazy.. your country is so divided, entrenched and adversarial that you are destroying yourselves & each other (while the 1%ers continue to clean up financially).. I dont believe there is any hope for much change for the better here.. sorry to say..

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 8:01:20 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Again, I am an outsider and from my observations,.. I have come to the conclusion that this country is batshite crazy.. your country is so divided, entrenched and adversarial that you are destroying yourselves & each other (while the 1%ers continue to clean up financially).. I dont believe there is any hope for much change for the better here.. sorry to say..

You are quite right. We have been divided throughout our history. Let me make that point with greater emphasis: Ours is a history of division. The Constitution is a fragile compromise. We fought an horrendous civil war. We continue to fight that war today. I am not sure that either side is winning. Or will ever win. We don't know what victory looks like. Or, better said, each side has its own narrative of victory.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 8:46:09 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Butch- if you can move on from that area- I think you should.

Thank you Term for that post.

and Polite- England as good as made the Irish into slaves- and many others- the sun never sets on the british empire.


Back to Butch- it does not matter what you post or think- when critical mass happens any white person is in danger. It doesnt matter how open minded you are. On the street- you are just an old cracker. The oppressor. Bands of "youths" will attack you just for the pleasure of inflicting pain on you. Even blacks avoid some black areas- and try to leave- it starts off with some good ones (and yes- there are a good number of blacks that are fine upstanding people) but then others come and want to make the new place just like the old place. You should get out of there.

I also will point out South Africa. White farmers are being brutally beaten to death by blacks. When blacks outnumber whites - this will happen in the US.

Before anyone jumps on me- my neighbors include, black, hispanic, and a lesbian couple. On the south side of town we do not put up with the problems that are on the north side of town. My block will be the last block to go bad. (the other side of town has the housing project, the liquor store, and the skate park, as well as the pool and sports complex.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 10:10:20 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Must be a local thing, which then skews perception for the entire country.

Blacks only seem to have a greater amount of robberies according to 2011 crime stats:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 10:21:29 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Well given that a lot of whites today were descended from slaves, even including some posting to this thread, I think that's pretty much a non-starter.

I need to double-check if I'm following you. You seem to be saying that the enslavement of some whites negates the impact of slavery and segregation on African Americans. Is that what you meant?

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 11:53:08 AM   
MasterCaneman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

One of my direct ancestors was sold to a Baltimore shipmaster in 1888 at the age of seven.

Poor kid. Who sold him?

The record wasn't too clear, but it appears he was in a workhouse in Belfast at the time, paying off some minor crime.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 12:02:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
the capacity for white people to be fucked up (if not more fucked up) is as deep and real as that of any other race.




My way of phrasing it, and this is something I deal with daily in my line of work, is that trash comes in all colors, but there is no trash quite like white trash.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 12:28:15 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Why would I want to taint all the great, interesting, and cool black people that I lived near and around with the broad brush of being a criminal


I don't know...why would you...I don't...I also believe there is a culture perception among blacks that whites are still looking for ways to discriminate against them... In this I will generalize of course... But it is proven over and over in the demonstrations and rhetoric of African Americans and their leaders... right up to President Obama.

There is a difference in my part of the woods between poor white and blacks... a big one when it comes to crime.... a very big difference. Yes I agree the lower on the economic scale a person is the more likely they are to be victims of crime or the perpetrators of crime. But in my area and statistics show African Americans are far more likely to be victims AND perpetrators of crime... And saying this they should be more weary of each other than the Zimmerman's they are protesting.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/21/2013 12:29:22 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 12:42:21 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

dont give me the line of how the US justice system works as it should


tj... Where did I ever say this in this thread?

But tj... don't give me the line that the 100+ murders committed by African Americans last year were all wrongly accused poor discriminated against African Americans at the hands of a racists police department... The Department by the way that has a very even mix of white and black officers and administrators...Two black chiefs in the last 10 years so very well represented in the community.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 12:54:41 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		This is an interesting read on transportaion/indentured slaves.

https://sites.google.com/site/britishmuseumproject2/home/object-3

As someone has pointed out though, it in no way makes African Slavery any less of an issue.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 1:36:17 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

dont give me the line of how the US justice system works as it should


tj... Where did I ever say this in this thread?

But tj... don't give me the line that the 100+ murders committed by African Americans last year were all wrongly accused poor discriminated against African Americans at the hands of a racists police department... The Department by the way that has a very even mix of white and black officers and administrators...Two black chiefs in the last 10 years so very well represented in the community.

Butch

that was said in the Zimmy thread by various people, not necessarily by you but I dont have a list of who did and I am not gonna go back thru hundreds of pages of posts to see which posters did.. I dont agree with various laws in the US cuz they can be interpreted so one-sidedly and be a perversion of my idea of justice.. (yes, I realize its your laws not mine, I have my opinion anyway )

I am not saying all accused of murder are wrongly accused, just that imo it happens too often.. In the case I mentioned (cuz i read about it recently).. it was a black man that was the killer, the injustice comes in cuz the cops charged an obviously wrong black man even tho they would either have to be blind, incompetent or simply not give a dam to charge the wrong person.. It sounded to me like it was the later.. a black man was witnessed so this black man will do (even tho he was no where near the scene at the time).. That simply isnt right and how it managed to go all the way to a trial is mind boggling imo.. not to mention, a waste of taxpayer dollars.. I wonder too, if he will sue the police for what he has been thru.. I think he has every right to tho.. they wont learn any lessons otherwise..

And in some states, offenses will get amazingly long sentences compared to other states.. those are frequently the prisons for profit jails where the majority of inmates are black or hispanic (some simply cuz they are illegals).. and they are treated as slaves, paid hardly anything for work done for private for-profit corps.. so the long sentences mean corps profit from their sweat longer.. while some people say doing the work is voluntary, there have been reports that contradict that.. so slavery does still exist in the US, but its kept in the prison system.. cuz again, no one gives a dam.. and some people view that is how they are "paying for their crime" (people ignore the fact that it benefits the big corps with political connections)..

eta- just cuz a cop or Police chief is black, doesnt mean they are fair to other blacks.. they may be much harsher on them and more unfair..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 7/21/2013 1:41:26 PM >

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 2:09:57 PM   
focalss


Posts: 164
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Status: offline 		I 100% agree about a backlash and it is deserved.

I read a comment on the Drudgereport yesterday about how racist this country is after voting in a black as president two times. Now Zimmerman to me should have stayed in his car and it is a tragedy when a 16 year old is killed, just the same as when anyone is shot.

With that said, he was not by any stretch guilty of murder from what I saw. Trayvon's juvenile past was not allowed in, he was suspended for fighting, drugs, graffiti in school and he was found with a screwdriver and girl's jewelry in his backpack so he was on the thug train. The juror who was interviewed said Zimmerman saw him looking into people's houses and acting suspicious. Nothing Zimmerman did that I hear was criminal even following Trayvon, carrying a gun or even IF Zimmerman asked Trayvon what he was doing there.

Jeantel? supposedly said in Piers Morgan's show she felt Trayvon threw the first punch.

But to answer this thread, keeping in mind the above, if Sharpton and all the poverty pimps were honest they would look at the case and if there was a FAIR trial say that the system worked. Instead they paint Zimmerman as a racist. When do we ever see these liberals apologizing for whites who are victims of blacks? If they were honest they would be against all crime and if the facts showed that the Black was the perpetrator they should, in the name of justice, support the white.

Last year there was a story about whites being beaten up in Norfolk VA. Silence, that is deafening on what is justice when a black is the criminal.

So to President Obama, and one of the worst Attorney General's in history, Holder, you are hypocrites. It is not a backlash when there is a trial and the white person is acquitted on the evidence, it is the truth. I predict no civil rights suit by the AG. Most likely there will be a suit against Trayvon civilly which will settle when Trayvon's juvenile past comes out if Zimmerman has insurance coverage.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 2:19:17 PM   
focalss


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Status: offline 		In reply to tj444 the justice system stinks and your example of the guy losing everything is a perfect example.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 2:43:54 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

You got the conservatives who generally want to double down on guns & walls and let it go to bloodshed (witness pahunkboy right below you).


Don't forget their policies that have created the the most skewed wealth distribution we've seen in years, a huge military budget, and cuts in programs that help the disadvantaged. Still, your turn of phrase here is excellent. It's a marvel that the death of a black teenager, something that should create sympathy and empathy for the victim and his family, instead becomes a starting point for white prejudices and the facts that under-gird them.


quote:

You got the liberals who, near as I can tell, want to wish it all away. Nobody wants to grapple with the actual reality. To do that, someone would need to start right out with, "OK, we've been screwing you blacks over for 200 years..." and then have that conversation without guilt or finger pointing.


Finding a solution to help the underclass in the USA is a real conundrum. I went back to see the middle school I served recently. About 11 years passed since I taught there. Both the school and its grounds looked like they belonged in a third world country. It was a jarring sight. You could rationally mistake the school as a low-security prison.

To help people get ahead --- one must offer opportunity coupled with accountability. American schools lack in both areas. One also affects the other.

When students and families are not held accountable for their classroom behavior and performance -- the scapegoat often becomes the teachers. The teachers, however, can't effectively teach when students don't want to be in the classroom and the reading and math levels vary widely in each grade. Instead of education, the goal becomes classroom management, often a daunting task itself.

In the end, the opportunity for an education gets lowered to simply keep the children together and pass them into the next grade. I saw the system as a communist one --- all children and families get an equal chance in the school -- no matter what their abilities, behaviors, or efforts. The end result is that the most difficult, challenging kids drag the whole school down.

I went to private school as a kid. My family bought the books. I helped keep the school clean. If my grades or behavior fell below the norm, I was kicked out.

The US public schools have compulsory education: no kid can get kicked out. To me compulsory education is a misnomer.

I don't know how you fix the system -- but the schools in poor neighborhoods won't lift their students out of poverty and equip them with skills to reach the American promised land. We need more discerning investment in our education -- and the families and children receiving that investment need to appreciate it --- not piss upon it. Getting there has proved impossible with all the special interests and battles surrounding our schools.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/21/2013 2:46:21 PM >

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 2:55:36 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

My way of phrasing it, and this is something I deal with daily in my line of work, is that trash comes in all colors, but there is no trash quite like white trash.


That's a well turned phrase.

It was a rough school and the kids were a tough bunch. I was fired after one year. It was the most difficult job I've ever held. I left quite humbled. Some of my fellow teachers were just unbelievably talented at what they did. The kids, well, for the most part they just weren't learning anything. The reasons for that were quite varied.

A veteran teacher once said to me. "Have you looked up a number in the phone book recently?"

"Yes," I said.

"Do your remember it?"

"No."

"Your classroom lessons are the same, these kids don't remember anything after you've taught it to them. It's like a number in the phone book."

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 5:15:51 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

"Your classroom lessons are the same, these kids don't remember anything after you've taught it to them. It's like a number in the phone book."

thats interesting.. when i was a kid going to school one of my big bitches was that you spent the fall of the year relearning all the stuff you learned last year but apparently forgot over summer.. I hated that cuz I felt relearning something i had learned (& yes still remembered) after only a few months was a waste of time.. I always felt school could be completed in half the time if it wasnt for the system holding kids back.. but I "got" math and it was one of my fav subjects (odd cuz I am a girl).. sigh.. Now that was just my opinion.. Just a point tho.. if you expect kids to be stupid then they will live up to your expectations..

why would you want to remember a phone number you likely wont ever use again? my view on memory is that in my mind i ask, will i need this info? if the answer is no, it goes into short term memory so there is more space in long term memory for the most important stuff.. and also, people/kids will remember stuff if its fun, interesting, inspiring, or motivates them in some way.. phone numbers dont usually do that, do they?

just sayin'

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 6:14:46 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Seems the dems- voted for all the free trade things too- and clinton removed most favored nation on china.

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RE: The hidden backlash…what many white Americans I k... - 7/21/2013 7:33:06 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Finding a solution to help the underclass in the USA is a real conundrum.

Is it?? Is it really? Sure, the problem has eluded the minds of our great leaders but I'm not sure it's actually all that hard. We'd just need to vote in someone that is not democrat and not republican... someone not already bought and paid for by the wealthy elite. That's the only reason why it's a conundrum.

How hard is it really? Invest in schools. Make sure there really is a safety net. Make sure that there are jobs so that the path out of school leads somewhere. Really all we need to do is build the American dream. I think it'd be easy once we got rid of the bloodsucking leeches in Wall Street and DC.

All the stuff you listed in your post. What's sort of investment would that cost in bombers? 2? 3?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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