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RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 2:34:20 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
My other suggestion, (and this is not meant to offend at all) - you obviously see the world so differently than most of us.

Nick even sees the world very differently from me and I agree with some of his points at the core. But as you say, the theatrics make it hard to really engage with his posts in a meaningful way beyond "Oh, the woman is keeping me down!" If I wanted to start a thread about my thoughts on feminism running amok there'd be a specific example, with links and a specific point to be discussed. For instance (here's a recent one)

Do you think that it is possible to use sex as a weapon in a marriage and that could be an important tool in a female abusers arsenal?

I have links to back up that story and provide context to my question. It'd be a fairly straight-forward discussion. I suspect most everyone here would agree that the feminists in that particular example had jumped the shark.

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Post #: 101

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 2:38:13 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
Men are told to do something about it!....But when they make progress as for having group meetings which leads to the same things feminist groups do, its not allowed!

Who isn't allowing it? A small group of chanting women? I don't see any of them carrying guns or tear gas and I don't think any of them have any powers of arrest.

I read some of the comments under each video, Nick. Jesus. Way to get everyone but a lunatic disagreeing with your cause.

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Post #: 102

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 2:39:38 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Utter bullshit.

We've been through this before, Tazzy. You appear to be a very ignorant woman.

What about these men?

95.3% of men felt domestic violence agencies were anti-male...40% reported being accused of perpetrating DV when seeking help at said agencies.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf

95.3% felt.... had they actually experienced it or was it their own percetions without experience? Impressions dont mean its the truth.

My post was in reference to the money allocated. If they dont report, they can be ignored. YOU and I have been through that before.

And you are still missing the point.. completely. There is x amount of funds. Those funds have been cut. If men arent reporting, why would anyone fund a men's DV shelter when so many women who do report need it as well?

I never said men were not abused. And you have been told specifically by a male on these boards who knows me exceedingly well that is NOT my position.

Men need shelters. No one is going to build them a shelter without knowing how badly they are needed. There is no way to determine how badly they are needed if men do not report.

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Post #: 103

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 2:51:59 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

Men need shelters. No one is going to build them a shelter without knowing how badly they are needed. There is no way to determine how badly they are needed if men do not report.

To be fair, the needs of battered men aren't, for the most part, likely to be the same as the needs of battered women. Or so I'd imagine, anyway. If kids aren't involved or the male in question feels that his kids are safe with the woman, then there's obviously far less of a problem of accommodation.

I have a feeling that the biggest problem for a battered man is much more rudimentary: he has to know what is happening to him and what damage it's doing. He needs counselling 101. The men that I've heard of being battered don't use such terms, can't relate to that worldview and have little understanding as to why they feel as bad as they do. They simply don't have an iota of training as to how to handle, or even to see, what's happening to them.

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Post #: 104

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 3:05:04 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

To be fair, the needs of battered men aren't, for the most part, likely to be the same as the needs of battered women. Or so I'd imagine, anyway. If kids aren't involved or the male in question feels that his kids are safe with the woman, then there's obviously far less of a problem of accommodation.

Kids arent always involved for women either. And if a man with kids is being battered, the children should go with him, the same as with a woman who is being battered.

quote:

I have a feeling that the biggest problem for a battered man is much more rudimentary: he has to know what is happening to him and what damage it's doing. He needs counselling 101. The men that I've heard of being battered don't use such terms, can't relate to that worldview and have little understanding as to why they feel as bad as they do. They simply don't have an iota of training as to how to handle, or even to see, what's happening to them.

They all need that training, even women still. Some still believe they did something to cause it.. or its a stain on them as a person.. "If only I didnt burn dinner... if only I had given him that blow job when he first asked... ect ect ect". The sex doesnt change the issue. For a man, it could be "If only I had the house clean... the trash taken out.. the yard done... worked another job to give her more money.. been home more often despite working two jobs"

Both sexes still believe they did something to cause the aggression.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 105

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 3:15:53 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And if a man with kids is being battered, the children should go with him, the same as with a woman who is being battered.

Ouch. Well I agree on the rest of it, Tazzy - but that's a *very* tricky one. My first instinct in such a man's situation would be that the battering-woman in question would go to the police and complain of the man kidnapping the kids and that the police would believe her. A hint of the man in question being a paedo - and that would be that.

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Post #: 106

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 3:46:56 PM

tazzygirl

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Thats why I said reporting is important.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 107

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 3:52:49 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And if a man with kids is being battered, the children should go with him, the same as with a woman who is being battered.

Ouch. Well I agree on the rest of it, Tazzy - but that's a *very* tricky one. My first instinct in such a man's situation would be that the battering-woman in question would go to the police and complain of the man kidnapping the kids and that the police would believe her. A hint of the man in question being a paedo - and that would be that.

Tazzy, I agree with your post - it is very relevant.

Unfortunately, Peon, like me, is in the UK and the authorities here are very one-sided when it comes to protecting battered men, with or without kids or men in any other vulnerable position.
My own personal case is something I could write a lot about - but I won't write much.
The ex did drugs, drank too much, regularly abandoned the kids (sometimes for days on end), fucked with a lot of guys (even with the kids around), was sometimes suicidal, introduced the kids to waay too many 'other' potential new dads, never did any housework.... the list is endless and I could prove pretty much most of it.
At the divorce hearing, I was accused of being a sexual threat to my daughter without a shred of evidence (because I had a GF and wanted her to meet the kids). You would have thought I was a convicted pedophile! I had to attend 10 months of 'parenting' clases and had to put up with an inept social worker who had never married and never had kids in 'how to be an effective father'.
I was told she could do pretty much anything she liked with impunity. Jeeez!!!
And every time I reported that she was blind drunk, left the kids, or doing something else equally obnoxious, I was basically told to go spin because it was just sour grapes on my part.
Yet the minute I had to take a day off work to see my kids, I was told I was an irresponsible father for losing pay in taking a day off!!

In most other western societies, men are given (almost) equal opportunities with regard to children and battering cases. I'm sorry to say, it's not the case in the UK.

To back-up what Peon was saying...
If I had taken the kids with me and she made that sort of accusation in the court, the kids would have been instantly taken from me and placed with her and I would have had an almighty vertical struggle to get them back no matter how bad a parent she was.

Maybe that's why peon doesn't see things in the same light as you.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 8/10/2013 3:56:10 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 108

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 4:12:06 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

To back-up what Peon was saying...
If I had taken the kids with me and she made that sort of accusation in the court, the kids would have been instantly taken from me and placed with her and I would have had an almighty vertical struggle to get them back no matter how bad a parent she was.

Maybe that's why peon doesn't see things in the same light as you.

The police here are f***ing cretins, FD - stuffed full of age-old prejudices and stupid opinions of every possible kind. I should know - my father was one till he retired some years ago, for which: thank God for British society.

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Post #: 109

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 4:29:42 PM

tazzygirl

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It isnt that way here... at least as the laws are written. DV cases, when called in, the battered dont have to press charges, the police can and will.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 110

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 4:48:02 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It isnt that way here... at least as the laws are written. DV cases, when called in, the battered dont have to press charges, the police can and will.

The US and Australia are very similar in how they work - with almost equality across the sexes.

In the UK, if a woman says she is raped or battered, she gets all the help and support she needs from the police and other social services.
The man is automatically in the wrong and even gets dragged through the courts even if he is innocent. He has to prove his case without a shadow of doubt whereas the woman only has to open her mouth and her words are taken as gospel and need no proof at all.

If the roles are reversed and it's the man that complains he is raped or battered, he is the one that is removed from the situation and told he has (virtually) no case and to suck it up like a man. If kids are involved, in most cases they are left with the women even if the woman is the guilty party.

There have been some notable cases where it's usually a wealthy guy that has managed to push his side and actually win. But these are very scarce in comparison. Bob Geldof is one such case and he openly admits that it was his money that managed to get him through the British legal system to get proper justice. Without that he would have been sunk like so many men are over here.
The injustice needs to be seen and witnessed to believe it could be sooo biased.

ETA: In theory, the sex doesn't matter - like it is in the US and Aus.
But in practice, nearly all our ancient judges are pro-woman when it comes to this type of case and to prove differently is almost impossible for a guy.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 8/10/2013 4:50:19 PM >

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Post #: 111

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 5:06:42 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
In the UK, if a woman says she is raped or battered, she gets all the help and support she needs from the police and other social services.
The man is automatically in the wrong and even gets dragged through the courts even if he is innocent. He has to prove his case without a shadow of doubt whereas the woman only has to open her mouth and her words are taken as gospel and need no proof at all.

FD, to be honest, that smells too much of tabloid propaganda to me. Do you have facts and figures to back this up?

It's just that I'm really, *really* tired of taking such things as 'fact' these days. Anything to do with gender politics is just too full of bollocks for me to trust it on face value anymore.

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Post #: 112

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/10/2013 5:36:43 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
It isnt that way here... at least as the laws are written. DV cases, when called in, the battered dont have to press charges, the police can and will.

The "at least as the laws are written" part is the key part there. I just watched it happen EXACTLY that way. Even though the male in question is a lawyer he was barely, barely able to defend himself. Even though the judge made rulings which are clearly and unambiguously outside the legal parameters, there was little he could do.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 113

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/11/2013 1:07:27 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

quote:

I've no doubt that many feminists will be happy to offer such men the benefit of some of the insights they have gained over the years

Yeah, like these feminists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBFl7YVnydU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XHrUAQEzNg

Men are told to do something about it!....But when they make progress as for having group meetings which leads to the same things feminist groups do, its not allowed!

These people are fucking nutjobs!

In post 98, I wondered:
" While I do hope I am incorrect, I haven't gained the impression that people with a world view such as that espoused by naughtynick on these boards will be in a rush to listen to or appreciate advice from feminists who have already traveled down this road. "

It only took the next post to confirm my impression was correct.

If people want things laid out on a platter for them, they are going to be sorely disappointed. If you are serious about changing things nick, you wouldn't be put off by the people in the video you posted. You'd ignore them and carry on with your work until your goal is reached. What do they say about people who fall at the first hurdle, especially one as feeble as this?

Many people prefer a good whinge to actually getting out there and doing the work necessary to achieve their goals. You have been shown how to achieve your goals, and where to obtain assistance in achieving them. You've ignored this advice and opted for a good whinge instead. Good luck with that.

I've concluded that you aren't interested in changing things for the better at all - you just want to stomp about like a bull in a china shop raving about your woefully ignorant, bigoted views about feminism and feminists. So I won't be wasting any more time on you and your pathetic rants.

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Post #: 114

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/11/2013 11:40:54 PM

Edwynn

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~FR~

What all this causes me to wonder about is if the issue of repeat victims is being dealt with or actually studied to the same degree as the repeat offenders, when assessing cause/effect.

In part of my early life I grew up close to a neighborhood where violent domestic squabbles were a semi-regular event, and it being that I could at least hear them, if they spilled out onto the porch or into the yard that would say that 'things escalated.' I didn't see the wife/GF beatings too much because that was understood to be not quite acceptable, usually. But the most vivid and perplexing episodes to this 11 yr. old were of a woman crashing a 32 oz. beer bottle over the man's head and then seriously attempting to throw him over a second story balcony, and another instance where the woman was beating the man repeatedly with a metal dog chain.

In any case I am just wondering if there is any investigation by the counselors of the victims (mostly women) of why or how they got themselves into the situation in the first place. Are there any records of repeat victims across several offenders? I know firsthand that there are numerous instances of the above, but I'm just asking; are there records that isolate such a statistic?

I say this because I started 'life on my own' at a relatively early age, lived in various 'trailer park environments' in the process, and witnessed many a perplexing episode of violence where the victim seemed to all but invite or instigate the whole affair. I don't mean just standard DV, but guys v. guys, women v. women, along with that.

Why don't we investigate why it is that some people want to get beat up? I have seen on too many occasions where one perpetrator (which soon enough became the victim) actively sought out an episode with another whom they thought would be a likely candidate for being a responder. My young mind could not understand why this woman would say something that had gotten her beat up on numerous previous occasions would say the same thing yet again. I finally figured it out, but I didn't like what I figured out.

The apparently emotional shortcomings of some of these victims needs to be addressed, in my estimation, and the investigation of that aspect should be a part of any counseling to the victims. In any case at least tell them how to avoid the violent types, if they have already suffered through two or more of them, which is a common occurrence.

If anyone reading this is taking it as yet another "blame the victim" venture, then you have seriously misread. On the contrary, I think that avoiding the subject of 'repeat victims' would in fact be the greatest disservice to these people.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 115

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/12/2013 2:08:36 AM

naughtynick81

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quote:

Many people prefer a good whinge to actually getting out there and doing the work necessary to achieve their goals. You have been shown how to achieve your goals, and where to obtain assistance in achieving them. You've ignored this advice and opted for a good whinge instead. Good luck with that.

You keep foolishly placing the blame and responsibility on the man who raises the issue instead of the people who are actually doing the discrimination.

If a woman complains about pay gap, where are the people placing blame on her?

If a woman complains about glass ceilings, where are the people placing blame on her?

If a woman complains about rape, where are the people placing the blame on her?

If a woman complains about DV against women, where are the people placing blame on her?

Why is it only the man's fault when he complains about males issues but not the woman's fault when she complains about female issues?

Why the female favouritism? Why the double standards?

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 116

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/12/2013 2:20:19 AM

naughtynick81

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Ya know how feminists keep claiming males have all this privilege?

It's funny how the so called privileged gender can't even raise their gender issues without being blamed for it while the less privileged gender gets to complain all they want without any blame being placed on them simply because they raised the issue.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 117

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/12/2013 2:29:49 AM

naughtynick81

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The simple point is that discrediting a man raising the issue is being contradictory if you on the other hand keep shouting "shudap, do something about it. You don't have a right to raise this on this forum blah blah blah"

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Post #: 118

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/12/2013 2:55:40 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
In the UK, if a woman says she is raped or battered, she gets all the help and support she needs from the police and other social services.
The man is automatically in the wrong and even gets dragged through the courts even if he is innocent. He has to prove his case without a shadow of doubt whereas the woman only has to open her mouth and her words are taken as gospel and need no proof at all.

FD, to be honest, that smells too much of tabloid propaganda to me. Do you have facts and figures to back this up?

It's just that I'm really, *really* tired of taking such things as 'fact' these days. Anything to do with gender politics is just too full of bollocks for me to trust it on face value anymore.

Only personal first-hand experience Peon.
I went through the wringer with my divorce.
My dad got accused of 'fiddling' by my own cousin - so I know these things first-hand.
I've also witnessed similar with friends caught up in the same crap.

I don't always put much credence in media reports.
But I can spout from direct personal experience.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 119

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/12/2013 4:09:42 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

If a woman complains about rape, where are the people placing the blame on her?

Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50% of women

Poll: Rape is women's fault

And, from your own country....

In 2005, Australian Muslim preacher Feiz Mohammad gave a speech in Australia that was covered in Europe and the U.S.[citation needed] in which he blamed women themselves for being rape victims.[18][19] He said: "A victim of rape every minute somewhere in the world. Why? No one to blame but herself. She displayed her beauty to the entire world... Strapless, backless, sleeveless, showing their legs, nothing but satanic skirts, slit skirts, translucent blouses, miniskirts, tight jeans: all this to tease man and appeal to his carnal nature.[20][21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming#Rape_shield_laws

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 120

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