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RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 7:32:55 PM

BitYakin

Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

what part of "biased? bloody straight I am..." didnt you understand?

Edited to add, that I am only biased regarding the subject of pregnancy and ability of a woman being able to make her OWN decision about her body and reproduction.

Can we get back to the topic of domestic violence, actually any physical violence against men??

BACK to the topic of DV???
this thread was NEVER about DV, or ANY of the issues so many have tried to MAKE IT ABOUT, its about WHY DO people feel the proper response to men wanting to discuss a feeling they have been slighted in the GENDER WAR to be RIDICULED for bringing it up!

which you have shown is a VALID question with your response to the issue I brought up

you can RATIONALIZE why women have this right and men don't all you want, but the FACT IS women DO have this right and MEN DO NOT!

this is a FACT, if I am with a woman, and she gets pregnant, and we BOTH KNOW FOR SURE ITS MY CHILD, and I WANT the child, she has the RIGHT to DESTROY MY CHILD!

and you have the RIGHT to feel any way about this issue you like, but that DOES NOT make it OK to REDICULE ME, and/or call me STUPID for wanting to talk about it!

< Message edited by BitYakin -- 8/13/2013 7:35:34 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 141

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 8:16:57 PM

ForgetToRemember

Posts: 48
Joined: 5/6/2012
Status: offline

I think there are a lot of social double standards for men, but these double standards are BECAUSE of other men. Examples can be seen when a man gets raped by another man. How often do Women joke about that? Now compare that to men...It is also the social stigma that men place on other men who WERE raped that is a double standard. Again, how many woman would think differently of a man who was raped by another man? Another example is the draft / registration, as well as the acceptance of women into the military. These double standards were also BECAUSE of men. Child custody is another example. What is the age old thinking when it comes to men and women? That men are the providers and women are the caregivers. Often times, this notion is held and enforced by men.

I feel like much of the double standards that do exist between sexes is caused primarily because of men. That's not to say women don't use those double standards, but I wonder how much they would use them if not so vehemently done by so many men? While there are some extreme feminist, you shouldn't take them any more seriously than you would an extreme misogamist. I think that, as with any taboo or sensitive topic, the issue of a double standard among sexes needs to be approached carefully. Do not let emotions fly or become entrenched in your own point of view. Do not resort to accusations or name calling. You guys are starting to sound like our Congress (in the US)!

(in reply to BitYakin)

Post #: 142

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 9:19:10 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

actually that a BOGUS argument, as its based on the ASSUMTION the man is not the father of the child

No, its based upon the truth that there is no proof he is the father. Until someone can prove they have ownership, their claims of ownership mean exactly squat.

quote:

sorry but with the EXCEPTION of THIS ISSUE, that ASSUMTION would be toosed out of court moment it was brought up!

You are wrong there. Claim ownership of any property without proof and it falls upon legal deaf ears.

quote:

"Exactly, the one whose rights are not in dispute"

sooo you just plainly admitted, the man RIGHTS are IGNORED!
let me ask this question, suppose I go to the abortion clinic and have the fetus thats removed tested and ther is NO DOUBT its was MY CHILD, then what? do I get to ask for MURDER CHARGES TO BE BROUGHT UP? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

No, I would expect you to choose more carefully where to plow. Its her womb, her body..... you cannot force her to be an incubator for the state, nor can you force your way into her body to demand she gets rid of it. The only option for you is to be more selective in where you decide to plant your seed.

quote:

absolute FACT, women are given a LEGAL RIGHT than men are DENIED!
you can SPEW the REASONS why its done all you want, but the SIMPLE FACT is WOMEN are given this RIGHT while men are DENIED IT!

Simple fact, when its your body that is being used as the incubator, you can decide. How I wish that were an ability... we wouldnt be having this issue.

quote:

and the fact is, this is derailing the TOPIC whish isn't what rights women have tha tmen do not have, the question I beleive was/is WHY to people feel the correct response to ANY attemt to debate such topics is to RIDICULE the person who brings it up...

Then why did YOU introduce it into the thread?

quote:

This is what I agreed with

when I mentioned this in another thread, I was pretty much told I was STUPID for even mentioning it! but it IS an undeniable FACT!

somehow I don't think the part you AGREED with what that its an UNDENIABLE FACT, but that I was STUPID for bringing it up!

you just PROVED his point!

I havent ridiculed him or you... shall I start so that your posts dont seem quite so ridiculous?

_____________________________

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(in reply to BitYakin)

Post #: 143

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 9:45:28 PM

Edwynn

Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
you can RATIONALIZE why women have this right [to decide abortion or not] and men don't all you want, but the FACT IS women DO have this right and MEN DO NOT!

As it should be. It has already been pointed out by several women who have carried babies and men who haven't, in this thread, in great detail, why that is the case. You can shout RATIONALIZE! all you want, but clear explanation is no more 'rationalizing' than explaining how gravity works is 'rationalizing' why "nature wants to make kids fall off bicycles." You can't frame the question in a totally ludicrous way and then accuse rational and logical responses as being 'rationalizing.'

quote:

this is a FACT, if I am with a woman, and she gets pregnant, and we BOTH KNOW FOR SURE ITS MY CHILD, and I WANT the child, she has the RIGHT to DESTROY MY CHILD!

But you DO have the right to negotiate the matter with the woman. Assuming this to be a situation where you both agree that you aren't meant for each other, but you (the male) want to carry it through and then take the child to yourself at an appropriate time, there are several things to work out. First and foremost, this is now effectively a surrogate mother situation. Here is one example that is representative of the market rates for surrogate mothers:

Excluding the agency fee of $19,500, we still have this:

Surrogate Mother Reimbursement of Living Expenses - Starting at $27,000
Experienced surrogate mother fees range between $32,000 up to $37,000

Surrogate Monthly Misc. Costs - $2,400

Maternity Clothing Allowance - $1,000

Criminal Background Check - $250

Attorney Fees - $5,000

So yeah, if you have the $35,650, at minimum, to talk to the woman about anything serious, then you can start talking a deal here. If she at least listens to the prospect, then your 'rights' have been fulfilled. But this is US contract law, and if the party being proposed refuses the proposal for any reason, that is by the law. It is most certainly not a tortious (tort law) or 'actionable' event. Who knows, you could even offer her $20,000 for the whole deal, save yourself $15,650, and see if she goes for it. But market prices for any and all services are easily obtainable on the net nowadays, so that would be a hard sell.

But, if you did not discuss any of this prior to your just lucking up on finding yourself a good poke, ... then NO!, you absolutely HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER.

That's the law.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/13/2013 10:10:26 PM >

(in reply to BitYakin)

Post #: 144

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 10:07:15 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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And guys, the time to discuss all these matters is BEFORE you jump into bed NOT afterwards.

But how many of these oh-so-enthusiastic fathers-to-be avail themselves of the opportunity to make all these agreements BEFORE they jump into the sack? In my experience none. I doubt that my experiences are anything but the norm in this respect. None of my gfs have ever told me about a guy making these arrangements before they jump into bed with them - guys have other far more 'pressing' matters on their minds.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/13/2013 10:08:18 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 145

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 10:15:54 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
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I have known at least 2 men who were raped. And yes, they got more snickers about it then if that same thing happened to me. But wait.. I WAS raped! Way back when people thought women asked for it (hard to do before the teens, imo). I was discouraged from reporting it. I was not coddled, pampered or given sympathy when it happened. Instead I was forced to bury it deep in my psyche.
Essentially men not getting sympathy is very much the same as what happened to me. It took work to get where we are now. People opening up about abuse and staying tough when people make accusations. Abuse in any form sucks. And that won't change until people start to stand up and shout.
Change does not come easily. I waited 25 yrs after to speak openly about being victimized.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

If a man wants sympathy for being a victim of rape he has to beg for it.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to metamorfosis)

Post #: 146

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 10:17:39 PM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
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If we are being fair here, then it is every bit incumbent upon the woman to raise the issue herself as it is for the man. While on the subject of the man bringing this up for discussion beforehand, how many times did you? Unless you are trying to make out that women are just weenie victims, etc. I hope that's not what you're saying. My experience matches yours in the converse; the woman never brought it up, because she had other considerations in mind.

I was just pointing out that if the matter were not discussed prior to by either party, then only the party that would actually have to (literally) carry the unintended situation through has a say-so in the matter.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/13/2013 10:38:26 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 147

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 10:47:27 PM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
this is a FACT, if I am with a woman, and she gets pregnant, and we BOTH KNOW FOR SURE ITS MY CHILD, and I WANT the child, she has the RIGHT to DESTROY MY CHILD!

No it is NOT a 'fact,' it is a delusion.

IF you said to the woman beforehand "I am fucking you because I want you to have MY child," and she is stupid enough to consent to that, then there is at least legal argument for it being 'your child.'

Outside that highly unlikely event, it most certainly is NOT 'your child.'

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/13/2013 11:00:30 PM >

(in reply to BitYakin)

Post #: 148

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/13/2013 11:43:10 PM

naughtynick81

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Joined: 3/23/2007
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As to reproduction rights, I partly believe in the feminist stance, it's the woman's body, so her choice.

BUT....yes, but with that said, if the woman chooses to go ahead with the birth over the man's will when the man clearly wants an abortion or totally not have a child to begin with, he shouldn't be forced to pay child support for the next 18 years.

If the woman can choose to not own a child, so should the man.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 149

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:09:58 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

As to reproduction rights, I partly believe in the feminist stance, it's the woman's body, so her choice.

BUT....yes, but with that said, if the woman chooses to go ahead with the birth over the man's will when the man clearly wants an abortion or totally not have a child to begin with, he shouldn't be forced to pay child support for the next 18 years.

If the woman can choose to not own a child, so should the man.

So the state should have to pay for you wanting to fuck but not take responsibility for your fucking? Good luck with that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 150

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:15:49 AM

naughtynick81

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Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:

So the state should have to pay for you wanting to fuck but not take responsibility for your fucking? Good luck with that.

If he's clear about not wanting a kid to begin with, it shouldn't be forced over his will. That is perfectly fair.

The state pays women benefits during the child rearing process, should we cease that too?

Oh, you wouldn't like that. It's only okay if you leave men on their arse to pay it all.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 151

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:22:34 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

If he's clear about not wanting a kid to begin with, it shouldn't be forced over his will. That is perfectly fair.

the state will refuse to take care of the child.. and rightfully so. Too many men walk away from their obligations, which is what started the forced paternity tests and child support to begin with.

quote:

The state pays women benefits during the child rearing process, should we cease that too?

Its well known that child support payments for women who are on welfare go to the state, not the woman.

In 1975, Title IV-D was added to the Social Security Act to establish a nationwide Child Support Enforcement (CSE) program, with the purpose of recouping money paid out to welfare recipients when at least one parent was absent from the home and did not provide support. N.C. General Statutes 110-128 through 110-142.2 established North Carolina’s CSE (now CSS) program. These federal and state laws set forth the requirements for the program.

So, this part of your argument is moot.

You might benefit from knowing exactly what you are talking about before making these weak attempts to attack.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 152

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:38:44 AM

naughtynick81

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Tazzy, where you fail in your argument is that you don't place the same standards on women. Why should the state support single mothers if you think the father who doesn't want the child to begin with shouldn't get it paid for him?

Double standard?

There should be some legal agreement before birth that a man can sign. If he offers to pay half for the abortion but the woman still goes ahead with birth over his will, he shouldn't be forced to pay pay pay pay for years and years.

If women have a choice, so should men.

Obviously, you don;t want equality and fairness, you want female privilege.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 153

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:46:32 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

...................when the man clearly wants an abortion or totally not have a child to begin with, he shouldn't be forced to pay child support for the next 18 years.

If the woman can choose to not own a child, so should the man.

He should have ensured pregnancy wouldn't result. That's his choice.

_____________________________

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(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 154

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:47:07 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Tazzy, where you fail in your argument is that you don't place the same standards on women. Why should the state support single mothers if you think the father who doesn't want the child to begin with shouldn't get it paid for him?

Double standard?

I dont? How do you know this? I have no problem with a man seekign child support when the woman walks out. a NCP.. non custodial parent.. should always pay support.. gender doesnt matter.

I have also stated that a man who is abused should take the children with him... which would also give him the right to seek child support if he so wishes. You, once again, are selectively reading bits and pieces to fuel your arguments, making them even weaker.

quote:

There should be some legal agreement before birth that a man can sign. If he offers to pay half for the abortion but the woman still goes ahead with birth over his will, he shouldn't be forced to pay pay pay pay for years and years.

If women have a choice, so should men.

Obviously, you don;t want equality and fairness, you want female privilege.

Actually, I want the children supported who are brought into this world. No court will accept that a man offered to pay for half an abortion as just compensation for raising a child. If a man doesnt want to support a kid, he can have a snip snip or not fuck.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 155

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 12:53:41 AM

naughtynick81

Posts: 890
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Tazzy, if the man offers abortion and clearly states he doesn't want a child before its too late, all the responsibility should be on the woman. It should never be forced on anyone. It's the woman's choice to go ahead with birth. If it's ONLY her choice and not the man's too, the man should be free from all responsibility.

She wants it over the man's will, so now she has to bare all the responsibility. That's what I define as perfectly fair.

You may not, so we will agree to disagree.

A man is not entitled to force an abortion as it's the woman's body but he is entitled to not have responsibility when he offers a way out of it before birth happens.

quote:

He should have ensured pregnancy wouldn't result. That's his choice.

HER CHOICE too. You're forgetting that one.

Too many people are hell bent on placing all blame on men. Like the patriarchy blamers.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 156

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 1:00:15 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Tazzy, if the man offers abortion and clearly states he doesn't want a child before its too late, all the responsibility should be on the woman. It should never be forced on anyone. It's the woman's choice to go ahead with birth. If it's ONLY her choice and not the man's too, the man should be free from all responsibility.

Define too late? Are you speaking about after the pregnancy has occurred and before the time limit is up for an abortion?

quote:

She wants it over the man's will, so now she has to bare all the responsibility. That's what I define as perfectly fair.

omg... someone wants something over a man's WILL... heaven forbid that should happen. lets tar and feather the bitch, then burn her at the stake!

Actually, you are now suggesting that she be coerced into having an abortion because he simply refuses to support a child he created. Courts wont go for that either.

Once a full proof method of birth control is available, I might consider your argument. There isnt one, except sterilization (and that isnt immediate) or abstinence. So, both parties going in know there is a chance for the outcome to be a pregnancy. Now you are insisting that the man should be allowed to go into the "act" with that knowledge then change his mind later.

Double standard?

quote:

HER CHOICE too. You're forgetting that one.

Too many people are hell bent on placing all blame on men. Like the patriarchy blamers.

It is her choice. Its also her body. What if the courts came down tomorrow and told all men.... go to a sperm bank and donate because you will soon all have to have vasectomies in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies. We all know that wouldnt sit well with you. This isnt any different. Its forcing a woman to make a choice in the way someone else wants her to choose.

Its her choice... and until the laws change, that choice isnt a man's to make.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 157

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 1:10:39 AM

naughtynick81

Posts: 890
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Define too late? Are you speaking about after the pregnancy has occurred and before the time limit is up for an abortion?

Yes.

quote:

omg... someone wants something over a man's WILL... heaven forbid that should happen. lets tar and feather the bitch, then burn her at the stake!

Well from all our past discussions, it's obvious that you don't give a damn about the rights of men. You heavily favour women which isn't surprising coming from a feminist.

quote:

Actually, you are now suggesting that she be coerced into having an abortion because he simply refuses to support a child he created. Courts wont go for that either.

Excuse me? She created it too. The bigots always forget that one.

Coerced? Far from it, I never said she should be forced to have an abortion. It's solely her choice.

She can either choose to go ahead and take all the responsibility or end it all now. She has that choice, not the man. Someone can't be coerced when they freely have the choice to go either direction. If the woman wants to go ahead over the man's will, it's all her responsibility, as simple as that. It's her choice, which means HER RESPONSIBILITY.

In your laughable stance, you are trying to say that women shouldn't be responsible for the choices they make in this particular situation. Men must be punished for their choices.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 158

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 1:25:39 AM

naughtynick81

Posts: 890
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If a man wants a child but the woman doesn't and yet she's pregnant, should she be forced to take responsibility in owning a child or should she have the choice to abort it all?

If you answer "yes" to the latter, what's the problem with my argument above?

I'm getting tired of all these anti male double standards.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 159

RE: A huge hypocrisy factor within gender argument - 8/14/2013 1:50:28 AM

naughtynick81

Posts: 890
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline

Anyway, the bottom line.

No choice should equal no responsibility.

Men having no choices should equal no responsibility.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

Post #: 160

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