RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?

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[Poll]

19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?

He got what he deserved

15% (14)

I would take him to Disneyland

2% (2)

Cops are a cold hearted SOB

20% (18)

I personally am sick of looking at grapiti

12% (11)

Outlaw tazers

13% (12)

More people ought to tag

3% (3)

I want to live in a slum

1% (1)

Kids will be kids

11% (10)

Regulate sales of paint

7% (7)

Buy that cop a beer!

11% (10)

Total Votes : 88

(last vote on : 8/16/2013 2:00:10 PM)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 7:14:33 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
....One size does not fit all.

Unfortunately, the law makers and enforcers have to do just that...
Make and enforce laws that fit the vast majority.

I'm sure that most would like to do what the fuck they like, but most of us realise that some restrictions are necessary for our own good.
The fact that some asshat likes to spray paint on walls regardless of who owns it or who has to clean the shit up when he's finished, means that there are laws which mean consequences when he breaks them.

For those that like tagging, why don't they build their own wall in their own back yard and spray paint that to their hearts content?
Wouldn't be the same would it. lol.
They want to break that law and they are railing against society for trying to impose it on them.
If they are that anti-social, they deserve all they get IMHO.
If I found someone tagging my property, they'd get a baseball bat round the head.
Just because the building was abandoned doesn't make it a free canvas for taggers.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 101

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 7:30:15 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I am all for rights- but a person does not have the right to harm another, (to include the property) Smoking pot would have been a victimless crime. Tagging costs the entire community.

I applaud Erie and their goal to seek a solution. My town has entertained the same idea- I am against it. Thats my opinion. One size does not fit all.

and yet.. some consider graffiti art and beautiful and better than looking at a bland brick wall.. would you feel the same way about this renegade gardener who basically does the very same thing, except his canvas is vacant lots and his paint is gardens? do you consider what he does beautiful and beneficial or do you consider that he is harming someone's property in exactly the same why as this dead kid did?

"So he started working with the organization L.A. Green Grounds to install a vegetable garden on the 150 ft x 10 ft patch of ground in front of his house, that strip between the sidewalk and the street that the city owns but the resident has to keep up … and was promptly issued with a citation to remove the garden. Then he was served with a warrant for arrest. “Come on, really? A warrant for growing food on a strip of land you could give a f– … care less about? I said cool. Bring it.” Finley, it is clear, is not one to be cowed. The city backed off, a councilman endorsed what he was doing, and the city of Los Angeles is now set to change its ordinance.

“I am an artist. Gardening is my graffiti. A graffiti artist beautifies walls; I beautify parkways and yards. I treat the garden as a piece of cloth and the plants and the trees are the embellishment of that cloth. You’d be surprised what soil can do if you let it be your canvas.”
http://blog.ted.com/2013/02/27/south-centrals-renegade-gardener-ron-finley-at-ted2013/

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/10/2013 7:35:05 AM >

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Post #: 102

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 7:41:00 AM

pahunkboy

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^ some want to put mural on our flood wall. I dont like the idea. I see it as a hinderance to the traffic. and lets face it- not all art is pretty.

I live on the river- a busy street and flood wall- in the past 2 years we have many accidents- my guess is due to cell phones. The art would be a distraction- you may disagree- but the last accident was a head on collision the people in the car were laying on the pavement screaming. This is a matter of feet from my computer. If you heard those screams- you would not want anything to distract motorists... on that street.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 103

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 7:54:11 AM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

^ some want to put mural on our flood wall. I dont like the idea. I see it as a hinderance to the traffic. and lets face it- not all art is pretty.

I live on the river- a busy street and flood wall- in the past 2 years we have many accidents- my guess is due to cell phones. The art would be a distraction- you may disagree- but the last accident was a head on collision the people in the car were laying on the pavement screaming. This is a matter of feet from my computer. If you heard those screams- you would not want anything to distract motorists... on that street.

Life is a distraction.. there are so many ways drivers allow themselves to be distracted.. kids in the back seat, smoking, drinking coffee, putting make-up on, shaving, reading, sleeping.. etc etc.. I see walls along highways that have designs in the concrete/bricks.. is that too much of a distraction also? I have lived in cities where there were huge murals.. they did not cause any accidents.. but perhaps the people in your town dont have any common sense to ensure that they drive safely while observing 360 degrees around them.. You have said your road is bad cuz of the trucks driving too fast down it.. perhaps something like stop lights, speedbumps, a metal/concrete median or some such thing are in order.. and perhaps the mural in itself is a way to slow people down..

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Post #: 104

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 8:02:45 AM

DaddySatyr

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I happen to think that tagging is a really beautiful art form. I also think that more efforts should be made to allow taggers to create their art; all those empty buildings, downtown or yes, even subway cars (I think) look better with some really nicely done spray paint. Give these artists a chance and it wouldn't cost the municipality a dime.

Having said all that; this young man was doing something illegal to begin with. Then, he ran from and apparently taunted the police. Then, he charged at them.

Police officers want to go home, at night, just like anyone else and they also have a basic human right to life. They had no way of knowing if this man was armed. They certainly had no way of knowing what his intent was, when he charged them. Instead of assuming the worst, and filling his body with lead, they chose what is overwhelmingly considered to be a non-lethal way to protect themselves while subduing their target.

I am sorry that a young man lost his life over a little bit of spray paint. Nothing he did rises to the level of commanding a death sentence but, at the end of the day, his death was an accident. Had he not been doing something illegal ... had he not run ... had he not charged the cops there's no doubt in my mind he'd be alive (and tagging), today.

Peace,

William J. Bratton

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Post #: 105

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 8:11:28 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with Tasers either during their arrest or while in jail. Amnesty International recorded the largest number of deaths following the use of Tasers in California (92), followed by Florida (65), and Texas (37). The Oklahoma City Police Department led all law enforcement agencies in deaths (7) following by Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, Harris County Sheriff’s (Tx), Phoenix, Az and San Jose, Ca., all with six deaths.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/press-releases/amnesty-international-urges-stricter-limits-on-police-taser-use-as-us-death-toll-reaches-500

Amnesty International says 17 people have died in Canada since 2001 after stun-guns were used by police.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=4ccf8040-2666-4463-b73c-9e531dab20e8

“The medical safety of allegedly-‘less-than-lethal’ Tasers is still being questioned, and without clear training and limitations, officers may use Tasers not because it is appropriate in a specific situation, but because it is the weapon available to them,” the ACLU of Florida statement continued. “ It’s unclear whether the use of a Taser was a justified response to a teen’s attempt to flee after being caught doing graffiti on an abandoned building, especially given that multiple officers were present and other techniques may have been sufficient in the situation.”
http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/miami-taser-death-raises-questions-allegedly-lethal-weapon/story?id=19909919

Im guessing all supposed criminals, violent or not are now open season for the police state for many people
Its a shame they dont go after all criminals not just the blue collar ones.
much easier to catch....and congratulate each other over.
Tragic accidents.... or not... somethin stinks.

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Post #: 106

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 8:18:40 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

^ some want to put mural on our flood wall. I dont like the idea. I see it as a hinderance to the traffic. and lets face it- not all art is pretty.

I live on the river- a busy street and flood wall- in the past 2 years we have many accidents- my guess is due to cell phones. The art would be a distraction- you may disagree- but the last accident was a head on collision the people in the car were laying on the pavement screaming. This is a matter of feet from my computer. If you heard those screams- you would not want anything to distract motorists... on that street.

Life is a distraction.. there are so many ways drivers allow themselves to be distracted.. kids in the back seat, smoking, drinking coffee, putting make-up on, shaving, reading, sleeping.. etc etc.. I see walls along highways that have designs in the concrete/bricks.. is that too much of a distraction also? I have lived in cities where there were huge murals.. they did not cause any accidents.. but perhaps the people in your town dont have any common sense to ensure that they drive safely while observing 360 degrees around them.. You have said your road is bad cuz of the trucks driving too fast down it.. perhaps something like stop lights, speedbumps, a metal/concrete median or some such thing are in order.. and perhaps the mural in itself is a way to slow people down..

You would not feel this way if you heard those blood curdling screams from the head on collision.

I suggested the city make it into a 1 way and reduce the speed limit- my idea was shot down.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 107

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 8:38:56 AM

eulero83

Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

I really don't understand how the 95yo situation is different from this one, and just to say if I could choose between being tckled or tazed I'll go for the first one even for some of you is so much insensitive and dangerouse

my

The 95 year old was refusing medical treatment. Unless a judge orders you to treatment- you may deny and decline medical treatment- at least under PA 6400 regs.

You have a right to refuse medications, and medical treatment.

You do not have a right to destroy other people, or their property.

Nursing home staff is trained to deal with aged. A cane, or show horn- per a 95 year old- when they are forcing him to to what he legally does not have to do is a problem.

As you know- I am pretty much an activist. In my circle of friends- tho- many are decrying this tazer death. Freedom tho- does not mean you have the right to destroy property. I loath corporations and mcdonalds. But as a home owner- I loath tagger worse.

This guys friends could commemorate his death by cleaning graphiti off of spaces.

The comment about the officer- I am sure he regrets the death. LEOs have a high incidence of suicide. They see the worst in humanity.

I am all for rights- but a person does not have the right to harm another, (to include the property) Smoking pot would have been a victimless crime. Tagging costs the entire community.

I applaud Erie and their goal to seek a solution. My town has entertained the same idea- I am against it. Thats my opinion. One size does not fit all.

The teen was not tazed because of his tagging, and if it was this would mean being sujected to an unusual and cruel punishment, even if not resooulting to the death, that is nothing different from lashing for drinking alchool in saudi arabia, but he was tazed in order to make him collapse and facilitate arrest, the justification of using a painfull and dangerous (it's a fact that a difect in the tazer or a medical condition can bring to death) method was that the agents percived him as a threat becuse he was running in their direction. In the older man case he was not hit by the bean gun because refusing to be subject to a medical procedure, but because the agents percived him as a threat as he was pointing them a cane, and not confirmed by witnesses, a 6" knife.
That's why I don't see difference but that while the older was a veteran the teen was a tagger, and I can understand the sympathy to the ww2 hero and the grudge to the vandal, I don't like graffiti and the subculture there is behind.
My concerns, and some can be find in both of the stories, are about other things:
the first one is moral, even if was it really necessary using painfull and dangerous weapons in that situation or other way could be find, so did the agents really acted in good faith or did they acted with superficiality, and even if professionally discharged they are morally responsible for the death?
second one is legal, this is manslaughter can be negligent or not negligent, I don't know the law of the florida and I know there are different concepts between the one in your country and the one in mine so in this case I have to make some question to show my point, I heard in the posts something like "this was standard police procedure" are this procedure somehow supported by an official law, I suppose it must be written also in your country but I'm not so sure about, or are them internal police force guidelines? If not what does the law say about the use of force buy law enforcement? Can be any ammount of force be used on any kind of crime suspects when cought in flagranti? Or is it allowed (or even mandatory) only when it's reasonable that the suspect is a danger for a third part, like pedestrian in a chase of a under influence driver? And if it is does tagging proves this danger?
Than I have a third one that is a cross between moral and legal, have this cops been sincere about their psicological state inthe moment they used force to make the suspect collapse? For what I know you define the legimity of defence on the percived threat and not on the actual threat (so by objective parameters) but can an officer that chased a suspect looking for physical contact for what is described a long time, than suddently when arrived in the proximity of the unarmed suspect what was the goal becomes in the mind of the officer cause of fear?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 108

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 9:36:57 AM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

You would not feel this way if you heard those blood curdling screams from the head on collision.

I suggested the city make it into a 1 way and reduce the speed limit- my idea was shot down.

I have heard blood curdling screams before (albeit from a cat killed by a coyote) but I can not force people/cat owners to "do the right thing and keep their cats inside at all times".. no matter how much I would like to.. accidents happen, we know when we do anything in life that we might not make it home alive or in the same state we left.. I make a conscience effort to do as much as possible to stay safe but shite happens.. perhaps we should outlaw vehicles cuz without them there would be no car accidents?

At any rate, the decision on the mural wont be up to you, it will be up to the city & majority of residents.. You know, one thing people never seem to do when they buy a house is go to city hall and look at what the long-term plans are for the area, what changes in zoning, traffic, roads, etc etc.. Its something every prospective home owner should do so they dont end up having to live with changes they didnt know about and are opposed to.. just sayin'

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Post #: 109

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 9:49:57 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

500 people in the United States have died since 2001

Amnesty International says 17 people have died in Canada since 2001 after stun-guns were used by police.

So if Canada had the same population as the US does, that would equate to about 170 deaths compared to 500 in the US.. hmmmm... it would be interesting to find out the actual reasons for that difference..

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Post #: 110

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:02:07 AM

Lucylastic

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heh, I know this may be hard to believe, but I wasnt actually trying to make the comparison on the numbers, more that canada is using them with as many problems as the US:) but there is a petition calling more better/more guidelines for training police to use them, But I had a brain fart and forgot to put that in the post...
I am pretty disgusted with the police here in toronto over the shooting death of an 18 year old last week, their actions over occupy people and the G20 summit bullshit.
but the petition states that police draw their tasers 1000 times a year in canada and along with amnesty are asking for stricter guidelines and tighter restrictions
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/476/851/662/train-edmonton-police-not-to-taze-first-ask-questions-later/
theres naff all I can do about cops killing people accidentally or otherwise in the US, so Im doing what I can here in canada.

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Post #: 111

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:08:30 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Tragic accidents.... or not... somethin stinks.

IMHO, the only thing that stinks is modern-day parents and society as a whole that let kids think that doing such criminal acts is "ok" because nobody is hurt like in armed robbery or thuggery.

In the old days, people could leave their property or car doors unlocked without worry of some asshat juvenile thinking his need was greater than yours.

As for tagging, some of it is nice.
But most of what I have seen is just downright f*ugly to my eyes.
So unless it's something that is appealing (and most aren't), I would much prefer to see a blank wall, or a clean subway carriage etc. Taggers are nothing more than a fucking nuisance and vandals.
Let them paint their own fucking walls.

As for tazers, why do you think it's 'open season' tazzy??
Better a tazer than lead bullets or a crushed skull from a good tackle.
Sure accidents happen. I don't know of anything better... do you??
Or do you feel that taggers and other criminals should just get away with crimes 'just in case' there is an accident?
Given the number of deaths in the USA as a whole, only 500 deaths since 2001 is quite a miniscule number by comparison.
Just sayin'.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 112

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:23:41 AM

Lucylastic

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well im roughly about your age, my parents were strict, and I got into tons of shit growing up..Im sure you were no angel either...I rebelled, course no one has ever done that before have they...Ive got three kids, all out of their teens now, not one of them has been i n trouble, not one of them was kicked out of school, not one of them has been on the dole....
everyone seems to be so keen on the berating the mom,( I know your opinion of single women having kids) NOT the father. the kid was 18..... at 18 yeah I was doing all kinds of shit was living on the streets for part of it. I went on to do my nursing training and got married, worked, had kids, led a productive life...
fuck your "tar everyone with the same brush". bullshit
Killing people for being petty criminals and or nuisances seems to be the cry of ignorance.

By the way i am NOT Tazzy
DEAD IS DEAD. He wont do that again will he.... he wont get a second chance. he wont cost anyone money being locked up, kept off the streets to become a bigger crim from his time inside...
My brother in law is a cop in the met, my grandfather was too. I have or had a lot of respect for the jobs they do.
I dont wanna see cops dead any more than I wanna see people being killed and just being passed off as an oops moment.
Ive seen three cops take down a drugged up ass hole weilding a pickaxe, he was bruised and had broken ribs at the end of it, he went away for five years.that was in the UK, they didnt have stun guns, they didnt have guns, they had training.
IM signing the petition for stricter guidelines not banning them
I LIKE electrical play.

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Post #: 113

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:32:58 AM

Oneechan

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A tazer should only ever be used in the exact same situation a handgun would be used, if the target is at a close enough range

five officers versus one suspect means a tazer is unreasonable to use. it is an unacceptably high level of force, unless that suspect is some kind of elite special forces guy and is armed.

(in reply to RacerJim)

Post #: 114

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:36:17 AM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan

A tazer should only ever be used in the exact same situation a handgun would be used, if the target is at a close enough range

five officers versus one suspect means a tazer is unreasonable to use. it is an unacceptably high level of force, unless that suspect is some kind of elite special forces guy and is armed.

... or unless the suspect is high on meth or angel dust or unless he's hiding a weapon, somewhere or ...

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Post #: 115

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:44:30 AM

Lucylastic

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yeah a paint can to tag is a WMD

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Post #: 116

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:48:16 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan

A tazer should only ever be used in the exact same situation a handgun would be used, if the target is at a close enough range

five officers versus one suspect means a tazer is unreasonable to use. it is an unacceptably high level of force, unless that suspect is some kind of elite special forces guy and is armed.

Or unless he has a screwdriver to shove into someone's gut. It's 5AM remember? That means dark.

Face it. if one of the cops had clotheslined him with a forearm and laid him out, you and the usual suspects would be screaming POLICE BRUTALITY.

Don't do criminal acts and don't do stupid shit like leading cops on long foot chases and you will probably live longer.

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Post #: 117

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:50:26 AM

Wendel27

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The merits of this particular deployment can be debated Oneechan but the idea that a taser should only be used in the same situation as a handgun just isn't right.

Taser is an excellent mid range option between a firearm and combatives. The idea that someone has to be highly trained to be incredibly dangerous is a misnomer.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 118

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:54:18 AM

Powergamz1

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Deaths as a whole?

Every person ever born dies, so by that logic, no amount of deaths is significant.

The rational comparison is between deaths and uses of the Taser... Is it 500 out of 50,000? 500 out of 5.000?

Notice that the manufacturer was forced to stop advertising their product as 'non-lethal' a while back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Given the number of deaths in the USA as a whole, only 500 deaths since 2001 is quite a miniscule number by comparison.
Just sayin'.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 8/10/2013 10:58:07 AM >

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Post #: 119

RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 10:56:56 AM

freedomdwarf1

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Soz LL, my bad.

But I don't tar everyone with the same brush.
What I am pissed off about is that criminals are getting away with crimes just because society is getting soft.
Things like that didn't happen when I was a youngster - at least not as often as it appears to be happening these days.
And no, I didn't get into endless shit when I was a teenager either.

All too often I hear the cry of 'we don't have play spaces or things to do or places to go' and that sickens me.
There are shitloads more things to do these days compared to yesteryear.
We made our own entertainment that wasn't destructive or a nuisance to other people.
I see it in my own kids.... if they can't press abutton and its instantly on a screen, they are bored shitless and don't know what to do.
I encourage them to read a book, get a hobby... anything.
But everything is just too much hassle - they want it brought on a plate to them.
Their friends aren't much better. If it's not on a computer, playstation or some console, they are bored.
That said, they haven't been in trouble with the law and, AFAIK, not done anything destructive either.

So, being bored shitless is just no fucking excuse to go wrecking some else's property or causing people harm.
I don't berate just the mom - I said parents and society.

And I don't agree with "Killing people for being petty criminals" that you are attributing me with.
I very succinctly said that it was a tragic accident from a supposedly non-lethal weapon.
Unless of course you are saying that tazers are just as deadly as a real gun and should be classified as such.

As for training, it's much different in the US.
Your police are trained by the manufacturers.
Most of ours are trained as part of normal firearms training.
And in many cases, our guys still need permission from a higher authority before they are able to deploy them.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 120

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?

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