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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 1:49:18 PM

CertainlyDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

So, basically, you just expected everyone to ignore the source that produced what you quoted.

Yes

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 1:50:55 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
Yes

Then see my post above. But in general I'm not the type to ignore context. That seems like a counter-intuitive thing to do. Next time you might clarify that a bit.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 1:52:18 PM

HarryVanWinkle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I view it pretty much the same as Gorean. D/s dynamics based on a work of fiction.

I would add, a work of fiction that WAY too many people take WAY too seriously.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 1:54:12 PM

CertainlyDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
Yes

Then see my post above. But in general I'm not the type to ignore context. That seems like a counter-intuitive thing to do. Next time you might clarify that a bit.

I should have been more specific.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 3:11:13 PM

evesgrden

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

So, basically, you just expected everyone to ignore the source that produced what you quoted.

Yes

Ignore the source?
There were over a dozen religious references to Christ, Savior, Church, Adam, Eve. But we were to infer, for no apparent reason that you did not want us to consider message within the context of religion. Why didn't you just ask if we thought it was kinky that some people believe that wives should submit to their husbands?

What does Ephesians or Timothy have to do with your topic if you wanted to take it out of a religious context, and why on earth would you spend the time searching the bible for quotes on submission if the bible and religion weren't relevant? This doesn't add up for me at all.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 4:23:55 PM

Missokyst

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Small answer.

Opression

Not kink, just another avenue people have used to keep someone else down.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 4:30:39 PM

Lucylastic

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yeah ephesians and timothy line specific, kinda destroys the whole non biblical approach

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 5:44:24 PM

CertainlyDom

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For me, I give no weight to the source and the references to God, church, etc. are meaningless. I almost don't notices those at all. So I apologize for not pointing that out. In my mind, I was bringing ancient ideas from a book that people still revere into a modern age to compare to other modern ideas. I never considered the concept of consent because, once again in my mind, the modern age was the reference point and I assumed consent (no arranged marriages and no forced enslavement like might be found on fictional Gor).

So the goal for me was to determine how modern people considered these ancient ideas and to see if anyone recognized a seed of their own philosophy. I accomplished that eventually but I also learned much more by not completely framing things as they existed in my mind. I have been on various forums for many years and have found that many times more is learned and accomplished by not completely framing your thoughts. You might say I don't always play fair in that regard and you may have a point. But remember, I'm a guy that wants to get into peoples heads and see how things are swirling about in there. Maybe it would help to know that I have degrees in Math and Psychology, a potentially deadly mix. I thank you all for your input and hope I didn't disturb anyone. I do have some other ideas I'd like to explore but I promise there is no religion or religious references.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 6:13:02 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
So the goal for me was to determine how modern people considered these ancient ideas and to see if anyone recognized a seed of their own philosophy.

Stripped of the societal mandate part I recognize way more than a seed in my own marriage. I don't have a "philosophy". I just have a marriage that I try to make as wonderful as possible.

The reason I automatically include context is because of the very limited communication medium we have here. We deal with nuanced questions all the time and you have to try to peer behind the text and figure out what's actually happening. So being sensitive to contextual clues is important. Face to face I probably would have already known you didn't mean "let's return to the good ol' days" :)

And no, you didn't disturb anyone. You confused us for a moment though :)

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 6:18:17 PM

FrostedFlake

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quote:

First, I didn't post this as a religious question so I don't agree that it belongs in religion. I posted it because it comes from a book that many people say they live by and don't question any part and

That is religion.

And the particular religion it is is utter tripe. It isn't even original. It is an amalgam of Zoroasterism and Judaism. I have never been able to find a point to it, unless that be, "Do lacka toll ya, lest ye die." The foundational notion that "God" created the Universe to get his butt kissed is entirely underwhelming. The concept of fear based faith would be humorous if it wasn't decidedly not. The enforcement of that fear that underpins this faith, via wars of extermination (the Cathars, to cite the best example, but there are many) and the threat and practice of execution of philosophical opponents in the most graphic and horrifying manner possible lays bare the true character of the Church. It's all about control.

Turning to the cited text:

quote:

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."

So, WTF does that mean? Men are Gods? Isn't that heresy? Should it not be burned at the stake? And does the remainder of the quoted passages resemble anything quite so much as the ravings of a charlatan i.e. con man? And of the rest of the Bible, is it less than a collection of trite contradictions, such that any possible desired outcome can be canonized via Biblical reference as "Gods' Will" and be given the mantle of irreproachably?

CertianlyDom, I vouchsafe you this tiny truth. Men are not Gods. None ever have been, nor shall any ever be. Those who say there was once one are at best mistaken. Those who say we all are gods come much nearer truth.

Here is where I put my money where my mouth is. I challenge any to name one thing an omniscient, all powerful, ever present supreme being cannot do all by himself. Yes, yes, make a rock so big he can't lift it. But that's a joke. I mean really.

How about, meet someone. Have a conversation. Learn. Be surprised. Improve himself. Commit a crime. Get sick and die. Any of these answers will suffice. And really, they boil down to the same thing. The motive behind the creation of all that is.

The truth is, God, his name is Steve by the way, created the universe in order to exist in it. Not as an all powerful etcetera, etcetera. But as an individual. Which? Why, all of them, of course. Every man woman child cat bat rat mosquito virus and bit of plankton. That's just on this planet. This Galaxy alone has about 100,000,000,000 stars, most of which have planets, some of which bear life and each tiny fragment of that life is a little bit of God. Steve. And the number of Galaxies in the observable universe can be estimated.

Simply open this link, click the photo to enlarge it, count the galaxies (Hint : 10,000) and multiply by 30,000,000. (Hint : 300,000,000,000) The Hubble extreme deep field is the product of 23 days telescope time and covers 1/30,000,000 of the sky. It would be more detailed, if more time were spent staring at the same point in space. But even if Hubble were to stare forever, it would not be able to see everything in the frame. Because that is impossible. Because the Universe is expanding. Incredibly fast. It is less than 14 billion years old, but the visible edge is more than 45 billion light years away. Such is the power of Steve. We will never be able to see anything beyond that line, and there is plenty more there, in every direction. And, of course, this is just one of an infinite number and variety of independent universes.

To put that another way, I am not impressed by ignorance. Even if it is called the word of god.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 6:48:38 PM

searching4mysir

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FR

Biblical submission is slightly different from "taken in hand" in that one looks at what the word "submit" means: under the mission of. So the wife is to be under the mission of the husband who is to be under the mission of Christ and His Church. As to the female teaching: she teaches in the home, and that is where her authority is (with her children). If you notice Christ's relationship to women and how Christianity was spread, it was through the women in the home predominantly.

She submits to her husband, but her husband has to love her and be willing to die for her, according to Ephesians.

Whether you want to call it a "kink" or not is up to you

< Message edited by searching4mysir -- 8/9/2013 6:49:16 PM >

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/9/2013 6:55:40 PM

littlewonder

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I don't see it as a kink, just the way I live my life. It's how I grew up. It's what I'm used to and it's what I like and I believe in it.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 12:01:30 AM

SomethingCatchy

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Paul ('Saul') persecuted Christians and NONE of his self written stories are collaborated anywhere else in the Bible. He's also extremely misogynistic, and many things he says completely contradict things Jesus said.

My opinion of what Paul wrote? Complete and utter rubbish by a biblical sociopath. It's not kink. It's bullshit.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 1:24:54 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I would have thought a better place to post this would have been the religion section.

Me too. I totally agree. One of the reasons I never go to P&R is I don't want to have to deal with religiosity, as I have my own religion. As for what those bible quotes say, I don't believe a word in the bible. Oh yeah, I've read it cover to cover and it's a great story for sure, but it's a work of fiction in my opinion, not that anyone asked for it.

Even if a person believes it's "inspired by God," the men who wrote it down still wrote what they wanted after it was sent through their own personal filters of what they thought was right and good. Therefore, it's really only those men's personal opinions.

I think most people will believe what they were raised with is the only truth there is, but it doesn't make it so. I have these debates with my Christian neighbor regularly.

I don't think it's a kink really or, if it is, it would be most closely related to Christian domestic discipline. I think it's B.S. and people use those quotes to keep women down. I just don't buy it at all.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 2:19:28 PM

DesFIP

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Look up Taken in Hand or Head of Household. It works for those who fit it, and doesn't work for anyone else. But that's true of any kink.

I don't really understand the question. Are you looking for a philosophic discussion on the merits of the quotations or are you asking for where you go to find others who believe in it?

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 3:28:32 PM

CertainlyDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't really understand the question. Are you looking for a philosophic discussion on the merits of the quotations or are you asking for where you go to find others who believe in it?

If you're asking me, I wanted reactions, period. Personally, I didn't expect things to go religious. I guess I'm so comfortably not religious (not a believer, not against, just not) that I was non reactive to the religious terms. Load to me just means something you hold as important. Church means things you believe or groups you love. God is something unknowable. It started because I was searching for some very old history of some of the concepts I have seen on this site.

I got reactions and I consider all of them to be valid and helpful. Even the ones that complained that the post was in the wrong place or that I didn't phrase things correctly. ll were valid from the point of view of the poster and discovering members point of view was really the goal for me. Even my own point of view was clarified to me. I hadn't realized I was as blind to religious terminology as I obviously am.

One thing that I have found interesting since being here is how often submissive women talk about being screwed over by dominate men. Many religious women complain that men don't understand and live but the requirements of them in the passage I posted to start this. When I first discovered Dom/sub, it seemed to me that the Dom takes on the responsibility for the sub and the relationship. To me that meant you planned for the well being of the sub now and in the future. It just seems that a sub that complains about being screwed over had a Dom that didn't fit what I thought a Dom should be. In this thread, not many people talked about the original post being Dom/sub. Mostly, not always, the focus was on the submission/slavery with little talk about requirements the other direction. Interesting is all.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 5:50:59 PM

metamorfosis

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Similar to male supremacy, taken in hand (male led herero relationships?), and perhaps even gorean.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/10/2013 5:51:45 PM >

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 6:17:06 PM

metamorfosis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
That is no sort of kink at all. That is human slavery and it is detestable. The moment you start mandating this stuff at the societal level it turns pure evil instantly.

I don't want to disagree so much as use this statement as a jumping off point for discussion.

I was raised in a family that believed more or less what was quoted. I was taught that getting married, submitting to my husband, and raising children was my duty as a woman and a Christian.

Partly in reaction to that, i stopped believing in god.

Regardless, there are many religions that teach such things. Does that mean they are pure evil?

Is believing in gender superiority or racial superiority (at a societal level) always bad? Would you guess that most people who practice these kinks distinguish between sexual roleplay and political belief? And if they don't, does that mean they are just closet bigots or racists?

If such views are part of a religious philosophy, do we owe them tolerance, or not?

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/10/2013 6:18:00 PM >

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 6:53:05 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

......Id rather have have my kidneys taken out thru my ears

I nominate this for Sunny's Quote of the Day!!

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 6:54:14 PM

metamorfosis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
And the particular religion it is is utter tripe...To put that another way, I am not impressed by ignorance. Even if it is called the word of god.

Many people were quick to denounce the OP's premises. Why haven't those comments been pulled for "insulting other people's kinks"?

By way of comparison, if someone said:

"This particular lifestyle is utter tripe... To put it another way, I am not impressed by ignorance. Even if it is called polyamory."
"...Even if it is called Leather."
"...Even if it is called "Gorean".
"... Even if it is called a TPE."

Do you think those comments would have been left stand? Not snark, I am genuinely curious.

If there is a difference, what is it?

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/10/2013 6:55:41 PM >

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