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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 7:32:07 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

I can't see it as a kink.

As an atheist I just think it's a bit of biblical nonsense with no more relevance to real life than anything John Norman wrote.


Yes this exactly. Blah.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 7:53:29 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
If such views are part of a religious philosophy, do we owe them tolerance, or not?

Tolerance does not require that I like a religion or approve of what it says or it's members do. I can certainly voice my alternate opinion which they also are expected to be tolerant of. It's when we start including/excluding people from stuff on that basis that it starts to go bad.

In the OP as I originally read it I read it as a cultural mandate and much as I hate modern day feminism I dislike those concepts because, if nothing else, they are stupid. Let's not even discuss how much pain and suffering they cause (and not just for women). I don't feel particularly required to stand up for pain & suffering.

In the OP as I now understand it, then it's pretty much my marriage if you took those thoughts to extreme. At the individual level for couples that are well suited to those roles I'm all in favor. As a cookie cutter answer I'm not in favor of any particular set of roles.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 10:56:48 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
It's not kink, it's religious propaganda.


Would you say the same about the Gorean philosophy?

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/10/2013 11:34:09 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In the OP as I originally read it I read it as a cultural mandate and much as I hate modern day feminism I dislike those concepts because, if nothing else, they are stupid. Let's not even discuss how much pain and suffering they cause (and not just for women). I don't feel particularly required to stand up for pain & suffering.


Do you call feminism "pure evil"? Do you call Gorean philosophy "pure evil"? Do you think the mods would let the post stand if you did? What's the difference between that and this?

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 12:24:02 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
Do you call feminism "pure evil"? Do you call Gorean philosophy "pure evil"? Do you think the mods would let the post stand if you did? What's the difference between that and this?

I suppose in the end I don't know. What is and is not "protected speech" here is up to the mods not me. I'll know if I get a little gold cmail.

OK wait. I was pondering this as I brushed my teeth (TMI, I know) and trying to come up with parallels or some way to get at the question of why I feel OK slanding openly against one concept yet I support another. Here's what I came up with.

If some Femdomme came here and had the whole goddess thing going on and said she expected her s-type to worship her I'd roll my eyes internally but readily acknowledge a couple's right to do so. I would support that post against others who attacked it. If that same Femdomme said she expected all men to worship her I'd laugh and mock her.

In that same way, the OP's post read as a personal statement is one thing... and in fact at the heart of my marriage/dynamic. Read as a cultural mandate to be imposed on everyone I stand against it.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to metamorfosis)
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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 1:12:00 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In that same way, the OP's post read as a personal statement is one thing... and in fact at the heart of my marriage/dynamic. Read as a cultural mandate to be imposed on everyone I stand against it.


Fair enough.

Although I think forum members often articulate personal preferences as absolute statements. I'm usually inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their meaning.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 3:29:09 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Religion gives many, many people some peace, comfort, and guidance. Religion ... even inconsistent doctrine, is a treasure that makes some people's lives better and has inspired many people to become better human beings. Religion can be a great healer and creator of love, decency, and community.

There are some people who find comfort in knowing what their role is... if the role meshes with their personality. Sadly, it can of course also be used as a weapon. No realistic person would argue the divisive nature of religion. Sometimes folks forget that religion has also played a large role in creating community, morality, law, etc. Like anything, it's power can be used for good or ill.

Anyone who knows me personally irl knows that I adore religious iconography and will find religious art, chochkas (no idea how to spell that.. so I'm going with how it sounds), and texts in my home. I'm fascinated by how people embrace and utilize religion. I'm a bit fascinated by the many consistencies that can be found across religions... which to me speaks to the base humanity of us all... but that is a separate topic, and I probably ought not stray too far afield of the question at hand... To me, the quotes are one of those things that gives me a psychological zing... oooo here is a way people use religion to make it fit their instincts... much like a person who is actually opposed to abortion on a gut level will use religion as their reason. It just makes it easier to defend one's personal beliefs or desires by tying it to religion. It is like an intellectual or social shorthand for the person.

It isn't a kink per se although there are certainly religious kinks. The verses you quoted are just snippets taken out of context... historical, personal, and doctrinal context. If I said its getting a little crowded in my universe, some people would know the context and know a whole lot about me because of context. A person who doesn't know the context may simply think it's a cute little way of saying... perhaps... I'm busy these days.

Context... very helpful in comprehension... both from a larger picture point of view and from the microcosm of the person who chooses the specifics...

do be patient with me if this post has been illogical... 5.30 a.m. and just waking up... Need coffee.

best,
sunshine

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 4:10:18 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		The Gorean philosophy is not religion the way most use that term. But it delineates a way for people to lead their life. And yes, to me it is propaganda as well.

Before anyone gets too up in arms about that, I consider almost all organized religions or any philosophy that tells people how to live their lives propaganda, since most have their own hidden agenda.

JMO, YMMV, yada yada

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 8/11/2013 4:11:36 AM >

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 4:49:38 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
The Gorean philosophy is not religion the way most use that term. But it delineates a way for people to lead their life.


Yes, and more specifically it delineates how two people ought to interact with each other. So does a D/s dynamic. That is exactly how the OP reads for me: as a set of guiding principals reinforcing a D/s dynamic.

The question ought to be rephrased as "What kind of D/s is this, if it is D/s?", because kink implies something sexual and this has more to do with power dynamics.

But yes, those principals formally organised into something like this: www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com is unquestionably a form of D/s.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 5:28:47 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
I never considered the concept of consent because, once again in my mind, the modern age was the reference point and I assumed consent (no arranged marriages and no forced enslavement like might be found on fictional Gor).


Even with the modern age as the reference point, the concept of consent is still a shaky one. For example, many modern foreign marriages based on those ideas are absolutely arranged. And, even here, many Christian faiths believe in male led relationships and also believe that it's sinful not to marry. So although a woman may have a choice of who she submits to, she really is expected to submit to someone, or risk damnation. I'm not sure that can be described as "consent".

So, without saying so, you expected us to assume modern days, assume a country without arranged marriage, and assume that religion itself is not some form of compulsion.

That was a lot to assume.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/11/2013 5:32:23 AM >

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 5:51:37 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
Jesus was the original masochist.

It was not Jesus who spoke.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 5:56:27 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
Ephesians
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a]
28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Most of this text admonishes a husband to love his wife. Implied is that the husband does not fornicate with other women.
ETA: nor men.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom
1st Timothy
11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

ETA: Well, it is a Christian text in so much as that it implies that the wife, being a transgressor, is permitted to fornicate with men who are not her husband.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/11/2013 6:06:24 AM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:13:25 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
wars of extermination (the Cathars, to cite the best example

The Cathars were crazy. Good riddance to them.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:14:41 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Despite the judgemental attitudes on this thread, if the "verses" you posted work for you, thats great. They wont for everyone.

1 - Not everyone is religious,
2 - not every woman is submissive,
3 - nor is every male dominant.

Personally, if more people worried about what was happening within their own relationships and less about what others were doing, there would be far less confusion, far less judging, and far more sex.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:16:09 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Men are not Gods. None ever have been, nor shall any ever be. Those who say there was once one are at best mistaken. Those who say we all are gods come much nearer truth.

Contradictio in terminis.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:21:43 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
I challenge any to name one thing an omniscient, all powerful, ever present supreme being cannot do all by himself.

Teach stupid people that there are limits to the power of the omniscient, ever present, supreme being - better known as the Divine.

We will have some more evolving to do before the stupid will have been left behind, I guess.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:22:00 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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quote:

Yes, and more specifically it delineates how two people ought to interact with each other. So does a D/s dynamic. That is exactly how the OP reads for me: as a set of guiding principals reinforcing a D/s dynamic.


The Bible verses quoted read as a absolute. Any good D/s dynamic will be tailored for the people involved, and not based on a set of absolute rules. But again, this is merely my opinion.

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RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:24:54 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
The truth is, God, his name is Steve by the way

Ah, you have read "The Nine Billion Names of God", a 1953 science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:29:50 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
the Universe is expanding. Incredibly fast.

Actually, it is not. My

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
this is just one of an infinite number and variety of independent universes.

Oh? I know about only two: ours and the other.

But your assertion may be correct... Do you have an argument to support it?

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What kind of kink is this, if it is kink? - 8/11/2013 6:32:49 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy
Paul ('Saul') persecuted Christians and NONE of his self written stories are collaborated anywhere else in the Bible. He's also extremely misogynistic, and many things he says completely contradict things Jesus said.

My opinion of what Paul wrote? Complete and utter rubbish by a biblical sociopath. It's not kink. It's bullshit.

So are unsupported generic statements. Can you offer some specific arguments instead?



_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to SomethingCatchy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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