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Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 9:24:28 PM

JeffBC

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OK, so I made a comment on another thread which suggested I had a different definition of IE than the BDSM norm. That got me to pondering whether I really understand what the BDSM version looked like. So a few questions:

1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

I'm not giving my answer right now. I'll pop mine in after there's some momentum going. And here. I'll save everyone a lot of disclaimer typing.

We all acknowledge that the opinions expressed on this thread are not meant to be the one true way but just our own personal interpretation.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/9/2013 9:25:04 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 9:37:02 PM

deliriuminabox

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I'm not in an IE dynamic (or any dynamic at all presently) and my early experiences left a terrible taste in my mouth for quite a long time. When I was in my early 20s I tried to be in IE relationships with a few different doms and it just ended badly every single time ... Me homeless and him with a new girl because he'd gotten sick of me.

Now that I've had some time to grow up a bit and establish myself, I find that I'm curious about it but not really sure if its something I would be interested in ever trying again. I read a lot more than I post here and I've quietly observed several couples here on the forum who seem to make it work and that feeds my curiosity. Obviously when it works and its good, its very good.

I'll be reading this thread with interest. ^ ^

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“Some of the most wonderful people are the ones who don't fit into boxes.” ~Tori Amos

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 9:38:00 PM

ARIES83

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Nice topic!
I will probably do a lot of chiming in, when said momentum is going.
The answers coming to mind for the questions in your OP are less than impressive...

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530 DAYS

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 9:48:55 PM

VanillaKinkTwist

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Quite frankly, I hadn't heard of IE before coming across your posts and profile.
So really it just makes me question if there is a difference between IE and TPE (which I have heard of) and what is it...
IF TPE and IE are the same then I could say I've had an interest in it but I'm not certain it's for me. If they aren't the same well then that brings me back to the first question. I could give you my understanding of your definition...probably wouldn't answer your questions though. Lol.

(in reply to ARIES83)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 9:58:12 PM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

1) Are you in an IE dynamic?

1a) Do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?

2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

This is my last post before I'm outta here. I separated the first question because it was actually two questions and I have two different answers.

1) Yes

1a) No, but I accept the reality of it.

2) consequences

l8r!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:03:16 PM

seekingreality

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

Personally, I know just enough about IE to know it isn't for me, so I don't worry about the precise definition someone gives it. Your definition could be 25% off someone else's definition and neither would interest me.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 6

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:08:13 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deliriuminabox
I'm not in an IE dynamic (or any dynamic at all presently) and my early experiences left a terrible taste in my mouth for quite a long time. When I was in my early 20s I tried to be in IE relationships with a few different doms and it just ended badly every single time ... Me homeless and him with a new girl because he'd gotten sick of me.

Now that I've had some time to grow up a bit and establish myself, I find that I'm curious about it but not really sure if its something I would be interested in ever trying again. I read a lot more than I post here and I've quietly observed several couples here on the forum who seem to make it work and that feeds my curiosity. Obviously when it works and its good, its very good.

Yes yes... but for all that, what IS an "IE" dynamic in your opinion? Inquiring original posters want to know :)

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to deliriuminabox)

Post #: 7

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:18:26 PM

getoutnow

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1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?

I have been in a past relationship where it was full TPE.

2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

I agree with BitaTruble and I will touch what deliriuminabox said.

Lets take the sheela22 thread where she gave up everything she had for a loser Dom.

What many submissives just don't understand, when you hitch your caravan to one that is on fire, yours is going to suffer the same fate eventually.

With a sub giving up everything for the sake of the Dom and being in a IE dynamic, she unfortunately loses all privileges/rights to look after herself. There may be a situation where she can't see friends any more, those relationships with atrophy. Same for family. She may be asked to give up her job or forgo her career. Again, her resume and skills will become stale. Eventually when that relationship passes, she'll struggle to find her place in the world. Which may lead to depression and hard times for the sub.

Quite honestly, IE should only be reserved for M/s couples who have had a few years together and the relationship is strong enough to be long lasting. It shouldnt be something that is taken lightly from the subs side, as lets be completely honest. 99% of guys here think with their penis and one minute the sub is flavour of the month and the next she has been released. I've lost count of all the profiles where the sub is prasing the Dom as being the best ever and then a couple of weeks go by and she is going boo-hoo.

My last TPE relationship? We did part and on good terms. I made sure she had an appartment to go to, she still had her friends/family to lean on, she still had her work/career. So it was just a case that I wasn't there anymore. Which she said was the hardest part for her to get over. Now if we had been married, sure I would have exercised more control over the relationship. But then I would have ensured a healthy balance was in its place.

What deliriuminabox said about being homeless disgusts me and if I had my way, Doms like that cease to exist.

Edit: Ugh, its late here. Must get to bed.

< Message edited by getoutnow -- 8/9/2013 10:20:35 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 8

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:20:52 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanillaKinkTwist
So really it just makes me question if there is a difference between IE and TPE (which I have heard of) and what is it...

For me IE, and TPE are all different but for others they can be pretty much the same. Here. I'll get the ball rolling with all three:

TPE: I don't like unbounded totalities. So when I thought about TPE I didn't want to consider every theoretically possible command because nobody is a TPE slave by that definition. Nobody could be. Because I like to ground myself in actual reality I decided that what I know and can measure is the past. So "total" is defined as "all the commands I have ever given Carol or have pondered giving Carol". She has obeyed 100% of the commands I have given her and there no commands I'm currently speculating about that she would decline. The moment she disobeys (knowingly not accidentally) a single command it is no longer "total".

IE (version 1): When the slave actually sees herself as owned property deep in her own self image and similarly for the master. In other words, we have progressed beyond "agreements" here to a more binding form of hierarchy. Note that there is no implication here about any particular span of control. This is all about internal self-image which is very binding but undefined as to the specifics.

later I moved the bar to my current definition

IE (version 2): When the control wielded by the master works on her mind as well as her body (eg: internally). In our relationship that is encapsulated in this:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to VanillaKinkTwist)

Post #: 9

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:23:40 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

Sadly, I didn't understand Bita's answer. Consequences is a part of reality... cause & effect and all that. So I'm a bit unclear how her definition differs from all of life.

quote:

With a sub giving up everything for the sake of the Dom and being in a IE dynamic, she unfortunately loses all privileges/rights to look after herself.

So I'm inferring that you equate IE and TPE? If so, I understand that viewpoint. If not, can you elaborate?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to getoutnow)

Post #: 10

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:33:04 PM

getoutnow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
So when I thought about TPE I didn't want to consider every theoretically possible command because nobody is a TPE slave by that definition.

Actually you are wrong on that, let me explain later on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
IE (version 1): When the slave actually sees herself as owned property deep in her own self image and similarly for the master. In other words, we have progressed beyond "agreements" here to a more binding form of hierarchy. Note that there is no implication here about any particular span of control. This is all about internal self-image which is very binding but undefined as to the specifics.

I agree with that. In previous relationships, where I try to stamp my authority on a submissive. I do try to change her mind to my way of thinking. I have been told a few times. "I wanted to leave you last night, but I couldn't. I belong to you, I am your property and it wouldnt be right for me to just leave.". So although their head was screaming for them to go. Their heart forbade them to leave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
IE (version 2): When the control wielded by the master works on her mind as well as her body (eg: internally). In our relationship that is encapsulated in this:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.

Haven't you seen that psychological experiment with the students, where some were guards and some were in-mates and over time they assumed their roles. Even though some thought it was wrong? Or an experiment where there are 2 people in separate rooms and one has an authoritative figure telling them to push a button to administer an electric shock to the other person, even though at one level will kill them? We as humans can be overridden to do what is not good for us, its all about being given the right circumstances/motivation to do so.

I love all things psychological. Stockholm syndrome/MK Ultra in respect to BDSM fascinates me. You can by very definition make someone believe what you want them to. If you said, slave cut off your arm. With the right manipulation you can lead them to believe their arm is foreign and needs to be cut off. It will take time to do, but it is possible.

So answering you first question. TPE can be total. It all depends how far you want it to go.

< Message edited by getoutnow -- 8/9/2013 10:34:21 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 10:46:32 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
Actually you are wrong on that, let me explain later on.

We can agree to disagree. You think I don't understand the full capabilities of psychological manipulation and I think you don't understand the full expanse of the word "horrific". That's OK though. This is a tangent to the IE question.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to getoutnow)

Post #: 12

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 11:32:54 PM

SeekingTrinity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

1) Im not currently in an IE dynamic with my guy (we switch with each other), nor am I sure IE or any sort of full-on authority dynamic is ultimately the right stop for me given my current identification.

2) I don't honestly know enough about authority dynamics in general to be able to offer an opinion one way or another

Sorry I can't contribute much to this discussion short of my perspective as offered. This is really beyond my skills set as far as dynamics go, so I won't pretend to be an authority on something of this nature as I don't feel I can do it justice

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 11:33:45 PM

VanillaKinkTwist

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Working within the confines of sane if not consensual...I'll discard the whole arm thing. Not because it's not possible but because most sane people aren't going to ask you to cut off your arm.

As to the whole thinking that if someone else thinks it is right than it is right...is wrong for me. It's the part that I can't wrap my head around. That may be, perhaps, because while I understand theoretically that most relationships have built to that level over time to have that trust...I cannot fathom having that level of trust in another human being to let go of all control, all decisions. It could also be that it brings to mind not having a thought of your own.

Hmm, I don't know how to explain how it all works out in my head but it's just a difficult concept for me to grasp. I understand doing something because someone asked or told you to and it makes them happy you have done so and therefor making you happy for making them happy but I get stuck on what if? What if they ask you to do something you find distasteful? On one level it makes you happy for making them happy but on the other you still find it distasteful. Of course if you work on the assumption that you have the same limits and there is love and/or caring in the relationship then it makes it a little easier to understand.

Perhaps that's the fascination of it for me. I cannot quite grasp it therefor I want to know it.

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 11:42:57 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
Sorry I can't contribute much to this discussion short of my perspective as offered.

Well I personally find those answers to be a fine contribution. If I had only wanted IE people to respond I would have said that. Non-IE responses help me to see a different facet of that label -- how it is perceived by others. I like looking at things from multiple angles.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 15

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/9/2013 11:51:12 PM

SeekingTrinity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Well I personally find those answers to be a fine contribution. If I had only wanted IE people to respond I would have said that. Non-IE responses help me to see a different facet of that label -- how it is perceived by others. I like looking at things from multiple angles.

Thank you

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 12:17:28 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanillaKinkTwist
Working within the confines of sane if not consensual...I'll discard the whole arm thing. Not because it's not possible but because most sane people aren't going to ask you to cut off your arm.

Yeah.. you'll note I bounded my domain by commands I have given or might want to give. So far that one hasn't occurred to me :) I'd have to go shopping for a new slave which would probably mean buying some black leather slacks and I hate shopping.

I could explain a bit more how it works in our dynamic but I don't want to turn this into a "Jeff & Carol's dynamic" thread. I'm hoping to learn about others. But you're on the right track. It's just a truckload of trust & respect for me and her need to obey driving an iron will to root around inside her own head and make the needed changes. It's that "need" part that caused me to hesitate for several months while I pondered whether anyone ought to have this sort of power much less me.

As a humorous aside, I find it funny that she doesn't see herself as a "strong" person yet I watch what she does in terms of mental discipline and I wonder how many humans on the face of the planet could pull it off.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to VanillaKinkTwist)

Post #: 17

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 12:20:18 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
This is really beyond my skills set as far as dynamics go, so I won't pretend to be an authority on something of this nature as I don't feel I can do it justice

ROFL - you clearly do not know how things are done on internet discussion boards :)

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 18

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 12:31:26 AM

SeekingTrinity

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From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
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I definitely do not

. I've always operated under the "speak of what you know, admit when you are over your head" belief system. Good news is that I can give my personal experience and observations. Bad news is that Im sadly not omnipotent. Can't even fake it like I am either

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 8/10/2013 12:32:18 AM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 4:35:35 AM

KnightofMists

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1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?

Yes.... I see it as the fuel that powers the authority dynamic. It's that internal drive of the slave that they are an expression of the Masters will.

2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

They are not separate. One drives the other in my dynamic. Their internal enslavement to my will compels them to obey my authority. Without the internal enslavement they must choose to obey. For an internal enslaved person to disobey is as difficult as asking them to stop breathing. And that's stop breathing! Not holding their breath. It's just not something they would consider doing, for to do so would bring harm to their own well being and happiness.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to JeffBC)

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