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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 7:45:51 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

I believe its the woman's choice.


So do I  ; }

As we libertarians always say :  '' Morals and ethics are best left up to the individuals themselves; not for groups to define.''



 - R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/30/2006 8:20:57 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 7:54:17 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		I believe in safe, legal abortion in the 1rst trimester for any reason. I believe in safe, legal abortion for medical reasons in the 2nd or 3rd trimester.

Yes, I -do- believe the father should hvae a voice, but I think that if they are irreconsilable in that the mother wants to abort and the father wants to keep, that the mother's choice takes precident. That is, untill we have viable artificial wombs for human embryos. -Then- if either partner wants the child brought to term, it should be.

I'm don't have the statistics on hand (but I'm working on finding them) but something to the effect of over 50% of abortions are performed on women that are -already- using contraception--that is, individuals who have made the choice not to have children yet, and are activly working to prevent them. Human error and the inevitable failure rate of contraceptives "cause" these abortions, and many/most women aren't using abortion as a primary means of birth control.


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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 7:54:57 PM   
diamonddreamlove


Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		Did you know they also call miscarriage, spontaneous abortion.  When i found out i was pregnant i cried for 2 weeks.  Settled down to have a wonderful new baby then spontaneously aborted and btw the father was there until the abortion then he took a powder.  As far as i am concerned i did not and would not have chosen an abortion for myself.  But in the long run have sat in an abortion clinic with my best friend as she made her decision to abort.  We both have wondered many times what our lives would have been like had our babies not died but wondering did not change it for either or us and the pain involved was and remains very personal.  I would not make that decision for another woman in a million years.   

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 8:03:16 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		did one and lost one in the scenario..........

What could I say that would comfort you?
Nothing.........I was there, you aint now there.............
Someday we will lay stones athwart you and I for no other reason than we touched the same tangent...................


This is life, and death..............

XO, love,

Ron

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 8:21:53 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts were on aboration.  I believe its the woman's choice.


I believe its a woman's choice, only because there is no other option, than it to be a woman's choice. I don't think it's a good thing, I think it's shameful, I think it's wasteful, I can't think of one good thing about abortion. But it's a woman's uterus, she may use it to to make bad choices if she likes. Men make bad choices to, like having 5 kids they can't support and encouraging abortions. But, the gatekeeper to birth is unfortunately in the sole hands of women.  A artificial womb would be a godsend. Then it will be inexcusable. One shall die so another can be unburdened. It just doesn't sit as a moral position to me. But my values don't dictate others. Unfortunately in this case.

That whole post is in reference to convenience abortion(refer to the list level provided), not the rape, etc.. cases which are not what most people are talking about when they say they are pro-life, anti-abortion, anti-choice(love that one) or however you want to frame it.

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 8:47:38 PM   
onyurknees


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Joined: 7/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: onyurknees

IMO absolutely a woman's choice, specifically within the first few months when the fetus is not viable.

Lynn



"Viable" may mean they can't live on their own, but it does not mean they aren't alive.


Many things are living. Cancer cells are living. Most of what you eat is living (or was).
Of course, any woman not wanting children should do her utmost to prevent pregnancy either temporarily or permanently. But if it happens against all precautions (and yes Virginia even the best scientific methods fail sometimes) then, I believe, she has the right to make that decision. The result of that decision and any fallout (such as eventual karma or wrath of god or just feelings of guilt) are also her responsibility.
Lynn

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Put on your 'big girl' panties and just deal with it!

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 8:56:21 PM   
onyurknees


Posts: 26
Joined: 7/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

I believe in safe, legal abortion in the 1rst trimester for any reason. I believe in safe, legal abortion for medical reasons in the 2nd or 3rd trimester.

Yes, I -do- believe the father should hvae a voice, but I think that if they are irreconsilable in that the mother wants to abort and the father wants to keep, that the mother's choice takes precident. That is, untill we have viable artificial wombs for human embryos. -Then- if either partner wants the child brought to term, it should be.

I'm don't have the statistics on hand (but I'm working on finding them) but something to the effect of over 50% of abortions are performed on women that are -already- using contraception--that is, individuals who have made the choice not to have children yet, and are activly working to prevent them. Human error and the inevitable failure rate of contraceptives "cause" these abortions, and many/most women aren't using abortion as a primary means of birth control.



Often in a discussion about abortion someone will trot out some person (I read about, I heard about, etc.) who "uses abortion as birth control."
I think you are entirely correct that few women out there (no more than a statistically insignificant number) would do that simply because it is not easier or simpler or cheaper or whatever in the vast majority of cases.
And, in any event, abortion is in fact a method of birth control ... just not one that most people would choose as their primary method.
It is a difficult topic and one always certain to bring out a great deal of conversation and - often - hostility. Still and all, debate is an interesting way for people to learn more about others, topics and themselves.
Lynn

_____________________________

All men are animals. Some just make better pets than others.

Put on your 'big girl' panties and just deal with it!

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 9:29:51 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts were on aboration.  I believe its the woman's choice.


I absolutely believe it's the woman's choice. Though i do have exceptions. Abortion should be outlawed after the 1st trimester. And that's it.

I have never believed that right after a woman becomes pregnant the fetus inside her is a human being that deserves to live.

How does a person distinguish extreme from nonextreme circumstances?

I'm going to ask this question, and it's purely hypothetical: If there was a program that can show what the fetus will become later in life, and say it becomes a murderer, would you abort it?

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 9:43:47 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onyurknees

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: onyurknees

IMO absolutely a woman's choice, specifically within the first few months when the fetus is not viable.

Lynn



"Viable" may mean they can't live on their own, but it does not mean they aren't alive.


Many things are living. Cancer cells are living. Most of what you eat is living (or was).
Of course, any woman not wanting children should do her utmost to prevent pregnancy either temporarily or permanently. But if it happens against all precautions (and yes Virginia even the best scientific methods fail sometimes) then, I believe, she has the right to make that decision. The result of that decision and any fallout (such as eventual karma or wrath of god or just feelings of guilt) are also her responsibility.
Lynn


Ummm, Cancer cells are living, but will never be anything more than cancer cells. A fetus, will become a baby, then a child, then a adult, then a father or a mother not a diseased malfunctioning cell. Hardly a valid comparison. As far as what we are eating, was, or is living. I don't eat fetuses, and don't equate wheat, or a cow to a human being.

I think your ignoring the fact that some living things grow into to different living things that should have a different value put on them. Cancer is not equal to fetus is not equal to cow.



(in reply to onyurknees)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 9:48:36 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Besides, don't you want to kill cancer cells?

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 9:56:46 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

Besides, don't you want to kill cancer cells?


yeah, I didn't mention that in my post as to give the benefit of doubt to the poster. It's a poorly chosen comparison. As Cancer is a disease you want to destroy, saying that in the context of a fetus is disturbing, if it wasn't just a poor choice of words.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 6/30/2006 9:57:19 PM >

(in reply to litleone8620)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 9:59:06 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		At that time, i wasn't thinking about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I agree wholeheartedly with you. A person shouldn't compare any life threatening disease with abortion.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 10:01:48 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
May i ask where your mention of the third person involved is? The father!!


Tank Ewe!!!!

A man has zero (legal) voice in this discussion.

That ain't right.

If a couple gets pregnant and the woman wants to abort, but the man doesn't...he loses.  If a couple gets pregnant and the woman opts to keep the child and the man doesn't want the child...he loses.

I'm not a woman so my perspective, I'm sure, has a few less data points wherein which to make a cohesive judgement on the subject...but the above has always seemed to me patently unfair, particularly for the guy who wants the child but is simply stricken from the decision by law.

Not an easy decision for anyone, but the law surely isn't considerate of a fellow who wants to keep the child.

There was a recent case (within the last 2+ years), some guy in the upper midwest, his girlfriend wanted to abort...he wanted to have the child...if I remember correctly he offered to legally obviate any of her future financial responsability...the courts held a stay on the abortion for some time but I never heard the final outcome.

Anyone know what happened on that?

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 10:16:38 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

I'm going to ask this question, and it's purely hypothetical: If there was a program that can show what the fetus will become later in life, and say it becomes a murderer, would you abort it?



There's a sci fi story I read once where a law is passed that anyone who has an abortion must visit their "baby" as it grows up. They must interact with a computer simulation of their child, once a month, till the child is 6 years old.

I thought it was absolutly horrible.


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 10:18:29 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I'm not here to argue, and I'm not going to argue.  This is my opinion and should be taken as such, not as an invitation to attack.

I don't believe in abortion.  I understand it in some situations, and I often have sympathy for the mothers, fathers, and children affected by it, but I believe it is wrong.  I will not judge someone for having had an abortion, but I will not agree with it.  Here's a way to look at it:  If a friend is pregnant and needs a ride to the clinic to have an abortion, I won't drive her.  But I will be there when she needs a shoulder to cry on afterwards.

People have abortions because they are frightened, for one reason or another.  I understand being scared.  That doesn't justify the decision, though.  It just makes me a bit more sympathetic. 

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 10:54:51 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		We all know abortion is a controversial topic, just like the death penalty, and eminent domain.

I personally don't think i could go through with an abortion. I don't believe i'm that  strong. But should the government be allowed to dictate a choice that should only be the parents'?

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:02:47 PM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline 		When does life begin?  BEFORE Conception.  Sperm is alive as are Eggs alive therefore LIFE BEGINS BEFORE CONCEPTION.  I am PRO LIFE, ANTI ABORTION.  I am not going to blow up an abortion clinic or anything like that...but I am with the poster that said she will comfort the friend that has and abortion but won't take her to get the abortion. 

It's a WOMAN's choice GARBAGE is just that...GARBAGE.   Your true choice ended when you opened your legs to play.  You don't want a baby, the only TRUELY safe way to stay away from that is not having intercourse....thats where your choice is.

Ms Loren
. 

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:04:38 PM   
onyurknees


Posts: 26
Joined: 7/10/2005
Status: offline 		Indeed, you are right, the government has already far too much say in our lives. Some things should be left to the individuals involved to make their own decisions based on what they believe to be right or wrong for themselves.


_____________________________

All men are animals. Some just make better pets than others.

Put on your 'big girl' panties and just deal with it!

(in reply to litleone8620)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:09:16 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

When does life begin?  BEFORE Conception.  Sperm is alive as are Eggs alive therefore LIFE BEGINS BEFORE CONCEPTION


I promise I won't get antagonistic, but if sperm and eggs are alive before conception, every time a woman mensturates she's murdering her eggs. Every time a man ejaculates he's murdering his sperm. Basically, any sex that isn't for procreative purposes is murder.

I think there are some reasonable arguments against abortion. This isn't one, however.


_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:14:46 PM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

When does life begin?  BEFORE Conception.  Sperm is alive as are Eggs alive therefore LIFE BEGINS BEFORE CONCEPTION


I promise I won't get antagonistic, but if sperm and eggs are alive before conception, every time a woman mensturates she's murdering her eggs. Every time a man ejaculates he's murdering his sperm. Basically, any sex that isn't for procreative purposes is murder.

I think there are some reasonable arguments against abortion. This isn't one, however.



UMMMM, When did Menstruation become sex?  This is a natural body function, not something a WOMAN chooses to do.  If Sperm and Eggs are not alive, what are they???

_____________________________

"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means" -- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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