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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 2:23:19 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It is indeed an interesting book, Kedi, but even if the assumed correlation to abortion and a drop in the crime rate is correct, I'd like to see a raising of hands of those that think society should encourage abortions in certain neighborhoods as a way to fight crime?


While I doubt that it would be an effective Overall means of controling CRIME statistics - a large percentage of terminations (or desired terminations) happen in cases where the woman in question is young, undereducated, poverty striken, and can't even afford to support herself much less one or more children.  These women live in neighborhoods where the crime rate is subsequently higher.  They can't afford to live in better areas.  Their children, by and large, are going to be raised in those Same areas - with a continued lack of means to support themselves, undereducation, and poverty level (or lower) subsistance.  It becomes cyclic, with each subsequent generation being trapped in the same manner that their parents were.
 
I hesitate to say "encourage terminations in those areas" - however - making them more easily attained in those areas (and removing some of the social stigmata attendant to having the procedure) could very well be a means of at least Slowing several issues at once.  Fewer children born in those areas to be a further drain financially on the already overstrained incomes of their parents.  Fewer children who are subsequently placed in the welfare system to be a financial drain on the rest of society.  Few children raised in areas where criminal activity appears to be the only way out - or at least the only means of raising themselves above a subsistance level of existance.  Politically correct or not, pleasant or not - poverty and crime go hand in hand society - and so does poverty and a high birth rate of unwanted children whom the parents are incapable of supporting. 
 
In the long run, it would be much more fiscally feasible to help women attain terminations of unwanted pregancies than it is to raise their children on the public teat.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 2:31:11 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Rhi, I would not place the "slowing of several issues" nor the easing of the fiscal burden over the killing of unborn children. Yes, those neighborhoods offer little chance for some, but if that child is aborted, there is NO chance. Think of all the men and women who overcame the odds, beat poverty and crime-riddled homes, and made a good life for themselves and others.
 
Society does need to address poverty, and crime; a harder fist for the criminal, and a helping hand for the poor. But more abortions is not an answer, not one I can accept, anyway.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 2:49:17 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

There is a very interesting and controversial item in a book called Freakonomics.
There was a marked decline in crime rates at one point. A lot of people were coming up with various ideas as to why.
An interesting fellow noticed that there was a definite link between Roe V Wade being settled in favour of a womans right to abortion and the fact that a generation of people would have been coming into their prime crime committing years.

It could even be tracked to the timing of certain states being later to adopt legal abortion. The drop in crime rates matched the timing of allowing abortion.

It seems that a great number of women who were now free to have abortions due to their bad circumstances, did so. And it had an effect on society as a whole. And a great number of possibly sad lives, did not happen.

The book makes some very striking links of things. And the methods and sources of info are very well cited. Also a great read to learn how stats are warped too.



It is indeed an interesting book, Kedi, but even if the assumed correlation to abortion and a drop in the crime rate is correct, I'd like to see a raising of hands of those that think society should encourage abortions in certain neighborhoods as a way to fight crime?


I have to agree. Solving social problems, perceived or real, by taking life is a horrible idea and it doesn't take a big leap of the imagination to realise where that can lead.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 3:38:26 PM   
MistressLorelei


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It is indeed an interesting book, Kedi, but even if the assumed correlation to abortion and a drop in the crime rate is correct, I'd like to see a raising of hands of those that think society should encourage abortions in certain neighborhoods as a way to fight crime?


What would benefit everyone, by decreasing the abortion rate, as well as STD"s,  is to educate our youth on the risks of  unprotected sex, and provide a way for them to arm themselves with crucial knowledge and the ability to act on it.

Many Republicans want to outlaw abortion, but also do not want to allow sexual health education in schools.  These classes are not an attempt to encourage sex, but are a common sense approach to  abstinence as the safest way to prevent unwanted pregnancy and STD's, while providing the necessary knowledge and protection one will need should she/he find themselves (anytime in life) choosing  to enter into a sexual relationship.

I cannot understand why the ultra-conservative majority wants to outlaw abortion, and also make laws to discourage the teaching of realistic ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy among our youth in today's society. 

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 4:27:51 PM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
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Status: offline 		I never made any such statement, that it would be an acceptable  way to prevent crime. I mearly pointed out the information.
However I will state that limiting peoples options in life can often have bad effects.
And the correlation is quite definite.
It does indicate, that people sometimes have to make hard decisions for their own good. The right to make those decisions should not be taken away from them.

If you see free choice as some Orwellian thing, I think you are twisting the concept.
Too often the same folks who fight against choice also fight against sex ed, birth control in all it's forms, and social welfare and other helping hands. They just seem to say no, while also saying no to other options too.

It gets frustrating.


< Message edited by Kedikat -- 7/3/2006 4:32:44 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 4:32:02 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		I agree, Lorelei; many do have backward ideas when it comes to sex, sex education, and protection. I think the world would be better if parents and society gave unmentionables the tools to make better choices, and protect themselves if they do have sex.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 5:32:53 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Think of all the men and women who overcame the odds, beat poverty and crime-riddled homes, and made a good life for themselves and others.

 
Realistically?  They're in a definate minority when you take the sheer Numbers that live in such conditions in this country (the US) compared to the numbers who "rise above" those conditions.
 
I don't expect such to ever be a particularly Popular opinion.  It isn't appealing to Any of us as an alternative - even those of us who view it as a logical extention of current social issues plaguing this country.  I have yet to see someone actually offer up a Workable alternative, though.  Tougher crime laws?  We've already got a plethora of laws on the books that do no good - they're still being broken.  Tougher sentences?  That simply means that each and every person who is Convicted is going to ADD to the same financial burden - only via the prison system, rather than via welfare.  The money all comes out of the same account at the end of the day - the pocketbook of the taxpaying public.  More assistance to those who are poverty striken?  Sure - why not - it's not like we're Bancrupt as a country, with a several Trillion dollar deficit already - go ahead and wrack up a few billion more per year, it becomes a drop in the bucket.
 
quote:

original : Meatcleaver
I have to agree. Solving social problems, perceived or real, by taking life is a horrible idea and it doesn't take a big leap of the imagination to realise where that can lead.

 
I guess I'm simply jaded enough not to view it as being all that horrible, when placed side by side with the growing population crises in all the cultivatable portions of the planet and then some.  Heinleinian monster though it may make me - I still advocate the idea of a Reproductive Board, and having to prove your fitness (genetically, emotionally, and financially) before you're allowed to reproduce at all.  Yes, it would have knocked me right out of the running for motherhood, but that wouldn't have been such a bad thing, in the long run.
 
quote:

original : MistressLorelei
I cannot understand why the ultra-conservative majority wants to outlaw abortion, and also make laws to discourage the teaching of realistic ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy among our youth in today's society. 


It's simply a good example of the government creating as many (if not more) problems as it solves.  Create a problem, and you have a far greater chance of keeping  yourself in power to "solve" the problem you created - as long as John Q Public doesn't catch on and realize that you're the one who created the trouble to begin with.  If something isn't a problem, how on Earth are you going to create paranoia in folks through the media, and use that paranoia to convince them that if they simply hand over all their rights to YOU, the problems will Alllllll disappear and life will become happy happy joy joy land?

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 7/3/2006 5:34:42 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 6:06:02 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		You can be tougher on crime; Giulliani did it in New York city, and it seemed to work to a degree. Quit putting potheads in jail, and keep the violent offenders in.
 
I don't want to give handouts to anyone; clean up some of the crime, and people will be willing to invest in or near the inner city; Jack Kemp promoted free enterprise zones (serious tax breaks for companies placing business in blighted areas and hiring locals) a few years back; why wouldn't that help? Do away with most of the tax code and burdensome regulations that hamstring business large and small.
 
Allow innovative educational ideas into the schools to better prepare the youths, disadvanted and not, to help propel the country and economy into the future...... http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060220/20leaders.htm
 
There are things to be done. Nothing will fix everything, but we can be so much better, and do better for everyone willing to be involved.

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RE: Abortion - 7/4/2006 12:33:05 AM   
Kedikat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

You can be tougher on crime; Giulliani did it in New York city, and it seemed to work to a degree. Quit putting potheads in jail, and keep the violent offenders in.

I don't want to give handouts to anyone; clean up some of the crime, and people will be willing to invest in or near the inner city; Jack Kemp promoted free enterprise zones (serious tax breaks for companies placing business in blighted areas and hiring locals) a few years back; why wouldn't that help? Do away with most of the tax code and burdensome regulations that hamstring business large and small.

Allow innovative educational ideas into the schools to better prepare the youths, disadvanted and not, to help propel the country and economy into the future...... http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060220/20leaders.htm

There are things to be done. Nothing will fix everything, but we can be so much better, and do better for everyone willing to be involved.


There are some very interesting aspects to the NewYork crime statistic drops. A good deal of nonviolent crime is simply not being put on record. Some changes have been made in " compiling " statistics, labelling certain crimes etc....
I read a nice article by a reporter who happened to have a nonviolent crime occur. It took him over a week, simply to report the crime in the " proper " way. A lot of crime is being solved by redefining and putting up the wall of " customer service " to make it just go away.
The reporter stuck with it, and finally managed to get the crime on paper as having happened. But he noted that few people with 9 to 5 jobs could have afforded the time and lost wages that would have been incurred, to get it reported and noted.
Consider the homicide rate statistics. If the person who was murdered, has the case pleaded down to some other form of death. It can be negated as a homicide in many districts. Dead through violent crime, but absent from the statistics. It is happening in many places. A little creative book keeping, and your law enforcement is suddenly better.

SPIN SPIN SPIN.........PR and the corporate way as the way of life....

DAMN got timed out as I typed, so I used fast reply.

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RE: Abortion - 7/4/2006 6:30:39 AM   
Dollbecky


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Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		To the Op
I raise my hand as being Pro-Abortion
And I think women who use it as a form of Birth control are almost criminally stupid...
But I also understand  my view is just that ...my view


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RE: Abortion - 7/4/2006 6:36:41 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Sometimes viewpoints contain objective truths.

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RE: Abortion - 7/4/2006 6:57:36 AM   
peterK50


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Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		The book "Freakanomics" offeres an interesting statistical anyalysis of abortion & crime. I highly recommend it.

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RE: Abortion - 7/4/2006 8:36:28 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I agree, Lorelei; many do have backward ideas when it comes to sex, sex education, and protection. I think the world would be better if parents and society gave unmentionables the tools to make better choices, and protect themselves if they do have sex.

Newt Gingrich came up with an idea which says we ought to ‘’pay’’ children to become interested/very proficient in math and science, that way they become engineers and researchers instead of lawyers. I thought this was a most excellent idea.  

A lady I occasionally see, is the coordinator for the ‘’Headstart’’ program for our district in the public school system. During a school board / PTA meeting last month, right before school got out for the summer, she delivered an impromptu speech before the board/parents which basically outlined a proposal to pay disadvantaged mothers -- who had already mothered one child, were not married and were living below the poverty line on government subsistence – to have their tubes tied. They would have signed a contract and received a lump sum and then an annuity for a set time.   

I thought her whole idea/proposal was awesome to the point of it becoming a national program/policy. But some of the parents and even a couple of the school board members thought it was both unethical and highly immoral. A few of the parents even thought she should have been reprimanded for it. The superintendent had a talk with her and told her not to be so provocative or she'd destroy a good reputation.

One of the greats.... could have been Plato, might have been Aristotle {Can't remember lol }, said that society often blames its leadership for their failings when in all actuality its society which is to blame for picking the wrong leader. We need new leadership that goes against the current societal paradigm and forces change.





 -  R

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RE: Abortion - 7/5/2006 3:56:18 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		If I remember correctly, there was/is someone in California that pays unwed mothers with drug addiction to have their tubes tied, or to be sterilized somehow, and perhaps in South Carolina as well. There is always an uproar over these ideas.
 
Here's a link to one of the stories: http://www.nd.edu/~observer/03222001/Viewpoint/3.html

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RE: Abortion - 7/5/2006 5:48:40 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		I doubt I will ever understand WHY such things cause an uproar.  We're effectively "paying" them (the women such programs are aimed at) to have a child every 9 to 12 months, by upping the amount of public assistance they recieve.
 
Ranger - it takes more than one person to elect in new politicians.  I did my part, I voted against practically everyone currently in office both at the federal and state levels.  Somehow, though, I doubt it would have made any sort of Significant difference if the opponants had won.  When push comes to shove, there's very little Actual difference these days between one side and the other.  What does PAC stand for?  Purchase a Congressman.  When it takes Millions to campiegn for an office which only pays a couple hundred thousand in salery - it makes me seriously doubt the altruism and better judgement of ANYONE running for office!

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RE: Abortion - 7/12/2006 9:43:46 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

protect themselves if they do have sex.


IF?????

Um....don't you mean When?

'Cause the little buggers are gonna do it, and do it often....just think back to your youth......Saturday night, how to get laid....didn't really care who either.....right?

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RE: Abortion - 7/12/2006 9:59:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Well if I'm honest Arpig, I did prefer a pulse but that maybe just me being perverted.

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RE: Abortion - 7/12/2006 3:33:39 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		I wonder, if science was to develop a way to ttransplant the fetus into the father's body for gestation and deliver.. I wonder how many would-be fathers would jump at the chance?

I believe it should be the woman's choice.

*************************************
It's bad enough Geroge the Lesser thinks he knows the purpose of every living cell enough to veto the stem cell research.  Some life is a life of sacrafice and who are we to determine the big Kahuna's Plan?  I wonder how adamant he would be if it was his mother was lanquishing for years with Parkinson's or Alzehimers or his precious twins develops MS?  But this is another topic all together.

Lotus

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RE: Abortion - 7/13/2006 12:39:17 PM   
LaTigresse


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Please note that my feelings and point of view are just my perspective, it is personal and not at all judgemental on others that have opposing points of view or those that have had abortions.

I have been watching this thread but never actually delving into it because I have rather strong feelings about the whole subject. I usually am very liberal in most of my political views. However on this issue my feelings are very different that my liberal counterparts.
My views have nothing to do with religioun. I have a hard time explaining how I feel or even why.
Having been a teen mother I know the angst of that situation. I never considered abortion because I felt that I had made the choice to have sex and that I knew the possible outcome and felt that it was not the unborn child's error in judgement. For ME to have said, it is my body therefor I can take the "easy out" would have been something I could have never lived with. At the point I became pregnant it was not just ME and MY body involved.  I considered adoption off and on thru the whole pregnancy even though I had been "encouraged" to marry as soon as I knew I was pregnant. It became obvious to me early on that my new husband was not husband or father material. I had approached my dear mother with my concerns and will not go into that conversation. Needless to say even adoption was not much of an option. After getting pregnant again though on birth control and being a mother of two children at the age of 18 I had a tubal ligation for which I have never had any regrets. No the marriage did not last and no I was not the greatest parent and no my exhusband was no father at all. However now at age 44 I know I have two fantastic adult children and two wonderful grandchildren for which I would not trade anything I potentially "missed".  That is my abbreviated background.

I am of the opinion that life begins at conception. I could not kill a child. The fact that I cannot see his/her face does not make it any less wrong or more easy a decision to make. To ME, accepting abortion yet condeming a woman like Andrea Yates for killing her children is a hypocrisy. To say one is okay yet the other is a hideous crime does not compute. I know that everyone has strong feelings on this issue and it is one I feel will just come down to karma. I refuse to pass judgement on anyone for their feelings or actions because I really can see all of the different points of view.



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RE: Abortion - 7/13/2006 1:15:37 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		If one had the choice to aleviate disease and suffeirng in the world or simply go on with your own private life.. what would one choose?  What if your exsistance, however brief., was your karma?

I chose not to have children because of the neurological problems in my family.  It would have been nice to have hope of a cure so that THEY could live a normal life.  But I opted out instead of condeming them to a future hell on earth.

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