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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:19:16 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Of course they're alive. What perverse is saying is that everytime a man ejaculates he's killing his sperm. And that IS a choice. I'll give you the fact that mensturation isn't a woman's choice, but is rape a choice?

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:23:00 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

A man has zero (legal) voice in this discussion.

That ain't right.

If a couple gets pregnant and the woman wants to abort, but the man doesn't...he loses.  If a couple gets pregnant and the woman opts to keep the child and the man doesn't want the child...he loses.



As a woman who is owed more than $54,000.00 in back child support I'd have to say....tough shit.




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- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:31:51 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		What's the difference between not letting the father have a part in their child's life, and not letting the father have a say in whether or not you get an abortion?

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:35:36 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		My position is that it is and should remain a woman's choice whether to keep or abort a fetus.
I don't think it is something that should be done on a whim and for birth control, but definitely don't want the government or anyone telling me what to do with my body.

Having said that, I'm going to help you men out and say that just as I think I ought to make the decision about having a lil one, so too I should be held 100% financially/legally responsible for said lil one if the father does not wish to be a father, and doesn't wish to be involved.   M

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:37:23 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

What's the difference between not letting the father have a part in their child's life, and not letting the father have a say in whether or not you get an abortion?



I really couldn't say as that was never a part of my situation.  The door was always open and child support never had anything to do with visititation, at least not as far as I was concerned.

He never bothered to do either (and yeah, he 'wanted' the baby).




_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:37:37 PM   
monkeynuts


Posts: 2
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		i'm posting out of my usual name because i know that sometimes trhe wrong eyes see these posts so i am 'hiding', but not from my feelings on this subject. I have kids of my own and have completed my family, if I became pregnant again I would abort. It wouldn't be an easy option because I, in looking at my other kids, would recognise exactly what i was aborting. However, I work every single day with kids that hit the system because their parents don't care about them, or can't appropriately care for them and I can assure you that there are not enough adoptive spaces for all of these kids - the number of adoptive homes if finite and already struggling, a child over 6, especially male children are considered 'undesirable' and often remain fostered through to adulthood. Taking into account that there are already too many kids for too few adoptive/foster homes how on earth do you propose that we deal with the extra kids who would be born if those wanting to abort weren't allowed to? Initially it'd be great cos most adoptive parents want babies and there would be a huge surge in available babies, but then what........?
Of course women and men should make sensible choices before intercourse and all pregnancies should be planned and all the babies that are born should be loved and cared for... but all too often that's not the way it is. I agree that abortion isn't pretty - but forcing women to carry to term babies they don't want and then either those unwanted babies being kept by mothers that felt, for whatever reason, that they weren't ready to for motherhood or dumping those babies into a foster/adoptive system which is already struggling just doesn't stack up in my book.
Sorry if I shound a bit ranty - I guess I am cos I share my life with kids that are so messed up because people have made bad parenting choices and I just don't see that guilt tripping or, worse still, forcing girls and women into continuing unwanted pregnancies helps anyone.

my opinion etc

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RE: Abortion - 6/30/2006 11:48:10 PM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline 		I knew someone would take what I said out of context.  I was hoping that we were adults and I wouldn't have to break it down.

I don't disagree that when a man ejaculates, he is killing millions of sperm cells even when he ejaculates in an effort to procreate since it only takes 1 to fertilize an egg.  This cannot be considered murder since he didn't choose to ejaculate more than one sperm cell....Natural Body Function. 

We all know Rape in the traditional sense is not a choice..(Why this question was asked is beyond me)  However, even when a pregnancy is garnered thru Rape, I continue to stand as a PRO LIFER, ANTI-ABORTION believer.  Yes Rape is a HORRIBLE act committed against someone but we don't know who we conceived if we conceived.  We dont' know the potential that unborn INNOCENT child has.  If you can't see yourself raising a child that was a product of Rape, then give it up for adoption.  BELIEVE you me, there will be a LOT less guilt associated with bringing a life to fruition and making the decision to give it a better life than you can possibly give it through adoption than there is in having it sucked thru a tube into a jar. Ok, no one wants to hear about the aftermath of abortion, they want to keep it all neat and tidy and sterile...but the reality is, even in the first trimester there are arms, legs, fingers, toes etc.....and its not pretty when it is in a jar.  Whether you got pregnant thru Rape or OOPS, the aftermath is the same. 

21 years ago, I had a child that was an OOPS, she knows she wasn't planned but that didn't make me love her any less and she loves me as much as any one person can love another.  We still don't know what her highest poteintial is, perhaps the first Black Female President...or whatever she chooses to do with her life....If she can touch just 1 person and give them a better outlook on life then all the mental and emotional anguish I went through when I was confronted with being a single parent was worth it.

I don't apologize for my views or opinions.  They are mine to keep to myself or share as I see fit......

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:01:06 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think it's a "necessary evil". I can't get into a discussion about "rights" because I really don't know - I just don't know (sorry to sound like a wimp). I was also raised a Catholic and some of it (whether I wanted it to or not,  I guess really did "stick"). I am not "against" it, but I am not "all for" it, either. I truly am "at sea" about this particular issue I guess.

I realize birth control can fail - but there are dozens of methods of it out there to use - plus, the man can use a condom. But - I would be the last person to tell some 13 year old girl who got banged by her stepdad or even a career woman who finds herself in an unexpected situation she just is not ready to cope with that it is not her option. The world doesn't need more un-wanted children (or even children living in poverty or in potentially abusive situations). I don't think it's murder - if I did I would never ever advocate it.  

I accompanied a friend to a hospital once who was afraid she was pregnant and wanted it confirmed (or not). She was upset and told the doctor she was afraid her boyfriend would be mad at her and that she could not let him know and she was crying and the doctor actually said to her: "Oh don't be afraid to tell your boyfriend - everyone wants a baby"! I just stared at this guy and wondered what planet he was from - she kept telling him that was not the case but just he would not hear it.

She had an abortion after she and her boyfriend decided (well, he did) that he just couldn't be a daddy (she wasn't ready to be a mom - even if she was in her mid twenties). I think that was their own business.

I do find it sad, if the letters I read in advice columns (Dear Prudence, etc.) are true, that more prospective fathers are not notified of their chance to be a dad (my guess is that some women have already maybe correctly surmised their willingness to take on that responsibility by choosing not to let them know). But in some cases they may want to know and just are not told - some would probably jump at the chance (maybe). "Partial birth" or anything like that is just too awful for me to even contemplate. If someone is going to have one, I say have one within 3 months.

There are people I've known who seem to use the option of abortion as a form of birth control - given all the other methods out there (and the relative expense of an abortion) I think that's kind of  un-neccessary trauma going on, maybe. But I'd never force anyone to have  a child they cannot care for (and if they don't want one, or feel financially able to care for one, and maybe mostly emotionally able, then they most likely cannot care for one as well as if that child was completely desired. So there's my two cents.

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/1/2006 12:57:48 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:01:19 AM   
litleone8620


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Status: offline 		And i respect you for your views, just as i would expect the same, no matter how we differ on them.

If i got pregnant through rape, God forbid, the thoughts alone would be enough to break me down. I wouldn't need or want the physical reminder of what i had to go through. Nine months of physical reminder. Hellish.

The chances of the child you put up for adoption being adopted are slim. True, there is a higher chance for new borns to be adopted than older children, but it's still slim.

I honestly would rather abort than give up for adoption. I would hate for my child to grow up in foster homes, that could be abusive (sexually, physically, mentally).  That guilt would be worse for me than if i aborted.

If the woman feels guitly after aborting, then it's her problem. She's the one that made that decision, and therefore has to live with it. But i think that if a woman does go through with abortion, then i would HOPE she had thought her decision through, and understands  that she might feel guilty. But like i said, it's her choice.

Just like it should be.

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:14:05 AM   
MistressLorelei


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

When does life begin?  BEFORE Conception.  Sperm is alive as are Eggs alive therefore LIFE BEGINS BEFORE CONCEPTION.  I am PRO LIFE, ANTI ABORTION.  I am not going to blow up an abortion clinic or anything like that...but I am with the poster that said she will comfort the friend that has and abortion but won't take her to get the abortion. 

It's a WOMAN's choice GARBAGE is just that...GARBAGE.   Your true choice ended when you opened your legs to play.  You don't want a baby, the only TRUELY safe way to stay away from that is not having intercourse....thats where your choice is.

Ms Loren
. 


Like Level, I posted extensively on this in a previous thread, and it's still relevant here.

My choice is not garbage, but far too many unwanted babies have been born and wound up in the garbage.  Forcing women to have babies they don't want doesn't make them a good parent, nor does it get an unwanted baby adopted into a good home, or any home.

I don't think most (if not any of us) want to extinguish a viable life or any life for that matter.  Most women spend more than 25 years actively trying not to get pregnant, and somehow, most of us succeed most of the time.

What defines a life?  Pro Life sees life upon conception.  At conception it's a life and the sperm that was just ejaculated into a women and found its way to egg fertilizationis *poof* now it's a life with the same rights as a human being?   Is it a life or a *potential* life?  It's how one sees it.  I find it reasonable that once a life is viable, and could exist on its own capacity, it's a life.... before that, it is a group of cells preparing to form a potential life.  A woman, or any human being should decide how she chooses to take care of a group of cells growing in her body.

The majority of abortions are not  as frivolous "birth control".  Most women who would not take abortion seriously, and would consider it a means of birth control would not have the monetary means to afford one these days.  Most women who have abortions are not repeat offenders.... abortion is physically and emotionally awful once.  Sadly doctors qualified to perform abortions have become a rare find due to fanatical Pro-Life protests outside of clinics, death threats and murder all in the name of preserving life.

I do not agree with abortion... for me.  But I am thankful for the right to choose how I take care of my own body.  It's a shame that  so many people are far more concerned with a women's fertilized egg  than the living, breathing human beings who currently walk among us.

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 7/1/2006 12:16:39 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:22:52 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I know I actually took classes w/similar information to what you mentioned on this topic in high school, Level - this is such an emotion-laden topic. I guess the hardest part for me is that - nobody has ever determined at which point an embryo has a soul (well - the Pope has I guess. Too bad I don't believe he is infallible). I've seen many of the pro-life flyers and films and I just don't know what to think anymore.
I do find it hard to say it's fine to thrust unwanted babies into people's lives and just say: "You should have known better" (that isn't going to help the child, or their parents). I also wish I saw more pro-life protesters offering to adopt. 

A friend of mine from college got pregnant her Freshman year - and her parents would not let her have an abortion (and she was not emotionally stable enough to get one without their "approval", I guess) - nor was she even allowed to consider putting the child up for adoption  (she had no job and no place to go at the time and now says she wishes she'd have just left home and done what she thought she should have done: Have an abortion (she has not had an easy time of it and neither has her son; doesn't matter (to me), really whose "fault" that might be).

Her parents' view at the time was: "You made your bed - you lie in it" (to a very limited degree, I can see their point but- it strikes me as un-constructive and mean-spirited in the long-term). Her son ran away from home at age sixteen (a few years ago) - I am not blaming it on the fact she fed him with food stamps for years and he never  had a dad around, and she unfortunately told her son she was "forced" to have him (brilliant move on her part) but...

I know there are great and dedicted single parents out there (God bless them) but - my sister is an attorney and at least half of her clients are owed scads of back child support they will probably never see - they are really struggling financially. And this might be old fashioned of me but I always thought it was nice when a child could have and be raised with two parents. If one (or both) doesn't want to be (or says they do and then decides they don't) - what then? Things become more difficult - much more difficult in some cases I've heard about. For the child and the parent who is raising that child.  

Maybe to be born is better than never being born, no matter what the circumstances might turn out to be - that's the key issue (for me) I guess. But I am "spiritually oriented" and have to wonder at what point a soul enters a human life - that is the most important question (for me). Evidence of life is correlated for many people, apparently, with evidence there is definitely a soul inside - but who said this is a fact?

Nobody can prove anything as far as that question goes (and, it might be better to "err on the side of caution" on that question, then - but then that leaves us (still) with a lot of unwanted babies (or let's just say babies in way less than ideal circumstances) around. Abortion is always going to be easier (physically and probably emotionally)  than adoption - it surprises me not that a woman would choose to have one. If men could get pregnant, I am guessing, perhaps just as many would be having abortions as women are having now - and for the exact same reasons.

Acc. to my church - my dog has no soul, so I could abort his/her puppies, no matter when that might be during a pregnancy. What I want to know is: Who decided this and with what "data"? I am truly a fallen Catholic - a really baaad Catholic.

Who decides this? I get so confused. I mean no disrespect - it's just a very confusing topic and I get really befuddled by it..

- Susan    

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/1/2006 1:22:47 AM >

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:27:46 AM   
monkeynuts


Posts: 2
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		just to clarify a couple of things.
1) there are more adoptive homes for babies than babies for adoptive homes so a baby given up for adoption would be snapped up unless it had a disability of some sort. not a nice fact, but a fact. the flow of homes would eventually dry up if all abortions went term and those babies were offered for adoption. most adoptive homes are great, these are people who have had to fight for the opportunity to become familes far harder than someone, like me, who was lucky enough to conceive without trouble.
2) as a foster carer I get that you may not want your theoretical child to be offered into the care system because it would have an uncertain future, but I think it's important to stress that most foster homes nowadays are great.

as much as I'd hate someone to carry a child full term because they'd been guilt tripped by the overly emmotive visual imagery of mangled limbs and heads used by pro-lifers, I'd equally hate for someone to choose abortion because they thought the life for the child they might give up would be so abysmal that abortion would be kinder....

I'm not just pro-choice, I'm pro-informed choice.

jmo

< Message edited by monkeynuts -- 7/1/2006 12:29:34 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 12:56:46 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		I was trying really hard NOT to take your statements out of context.

I read what you said this way--
the sperm and the egg are alive before conception, therefor the product of conception is alive.

Working backwards, the produce of conception (child/fetus/whatever) is a sentient life form. Therefor the sperm and the egg are, well, not sentient, but life forms.

You said "life begins -before- conception."
To me, that reads as saying that the things before conception (the sperm and the egg) are equally as alive as that which follows. If you'd said "life begins at conception" I would have simply disagreed and left it at that. But you said -before- conception.

To me, that's giving the sperm and the egg the same "aliveness" as the fetus. -That's- why I say it's a faulty argument. Becuase then you're criminalizing all sex acts not intended to produce kids, and all sperm "waisted."

Again, while I disagree, I was trying to disagree with what you said, not with what I read into what you said. Please correct me if what I read was wrong, and clarify so I can...well, so I can continue to disagree ;) but at least from a better position.


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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 1:41:07 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I have a dislike for abortion used as late contraception which most abortions are but I support abortion because before abortion was legal, women would go to great lengths and put their own lives at risk to have a termination of pregnancy. Far better that if abortion is going to happen, that safe abortions are available. It is still killing a life to me but as a society we care little for many lives which is why we have wars, happy to see people live in poverty and die of hunger and in some countries, executions.

Women are in charge of their own bodies and I understand that argument but if they are in charge, they should consider proper contraception in the first place. I know it takes two to tango and why can't the man consider contraception? But as is so often pointed out, women are in charge of their own bodies and only they can get pregnant. As a counter, I think fathers should be forced to take at least financial responsibility for their children and the mother while the mother is unable work. I think they should have increased access and responsibility for the child's upbringing too.

Abortion really should be in decline now because there is no stigma attached to pregnancy outside marriage, which used to be one of the pressures for abortion. At least there is no stigma where I live. However, decline in abortion doesn't seem to be the case. Sadly it is now too often seen as a life style convenience.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/1/2006 1:42:36 AM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 10:05:28 AM   
darkinshadows


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My belief is that there are extreme circumstances where abortion is the only viable option.  Unfortunately in most of those cases, abortion isn't what the people would like.
 
I do not believe in abortion.  Fact is, that from the moment a baby is conceived, it is a baby.  A bunch of cells maybe, but it is still a human.  You can call it a 'foetus' all you want, fact is that it has the potential to grow into sentiant form, which cancer cells do not.  Fact is that when an abortion occurs, it does end up in a jar.  It also ends up in an incinerator.  If your really unlucky, it will be placed on show, or experimented upon. These are facts - I don't apologise for stating them.
 
That said, I am informed enough to say I would never discount abortion if I was placed into a position where it had to occur.  I may not believe in it, but I never say never because you just don't know until you get to that point.  But at least I know what happens, and what it will look like and I am prepared to accept the consequence.
 
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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 11:03:37 AM   
ArtimisBlack


Posts: 154
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quote:

ORIGINAL: monkeynuts

just to clarify a couple of things.
1) there are more adoptive homes for babies than babies for adoptive homes so a baby given up for adoption would be snapped up unless it had a disability of some sort. not a nice fact, but a fact. the flow of homes would eventually dry up if all abortions went term and those babies were offered for adoption. most adoptive homes are great, these are people who have had to fight for the opportunity to become familes far harder than someone, like me, who was lucky enough to conceive without trouble.
2) as a foster carer I get that you may not want your theoretical child to be offered into the care system because it would have an uncertain future, but I think it's important to stress that most foster homes nowadays are great.
jmo


Where are you getting your information? "as a foster carer" you may know your home is great, but how can you vouch for the homes of others?


I do agree with your last statement
quote:


as much as I'd hate someone to carry a child full term because they'd been guilt tripped by the overly emmotive visual imagery of mangled limbs and heads used by pro-lifers, I'd equally hate for someone to choose abortion because they thought the life for the child they might give up would be so abysmal that abortion would be kinder....


I personally am pro (informed) choice as well.
Do I think abortion is something that should be done lightly or for any old reason? No.
I personally wouldn't get one unless I had to for the well-being of the child that could be or my own. Bringing a child into the world is a big responsibility and it does nobody any good if that child cannot be cared for as it should be.
 
Quality over Quantity.


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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 11:07:34 AM   
enigmabrat


Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		Honestly this is a very hard question... I am against abortions that is i would never have one but I would fight to the death a womans right to chose to have one. As for the father its sad they have no say to keep a child that is half thiers but then again it isnt fair that woman have to carry the child, all the health ramifications that go along with beeing pregnent fall on the woman and it isnt fair that anyone but that woman should make the desition to go along and take those risks the entire thing isnt fair really. Id love to say the father should have a say and he really should but because it is the womans body who is he to say you have to carry this child becaus he wants the baby... I dont know Im torn about it.

-da enigma-

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 11:34:29 AM   
impishlilhellcat


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Status: offline 		I think that if the father wants to be involved or is involved I think that it should be a mutual decision. However, I have seen plenty of times where the father doesn't want to be involved but he wants to dictate what a woman does with her body. So in a case like that I think it's the woman's right to choose.

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 7:07:23 PM   
zumala


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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts were on aboration.  I believe its the woman's choice.


I absolutely believe it's the woman's choice. Though i do have exceptions. Abortion should be outlawed after the 1st trimester. And that's it.

I have never believed that right after a woman becomes pregnant the fetus inside her is a human being that deserves to live.

How does a person distinguish extreme from nonextreme circumstances?

I'm going to ask this question, and it's purely hypothetical: If there was a program that can show what the fetus will become later in life, and say it becomes a murderer, would you abort it?



And become a murderer myself?  No.  Plus no computer program is 100% free of glitches, so it could be incorrect anyway.
 
zuma

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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 7:36:08 PM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		Womans choice.
And even then, what a choice. Many make the wrong one. But how to fortell the future. A man might dispute he has some say. Take a look at all the single women with little ones here on this site, searching for one who might stay with his choices.

I was not meant to be. Supposedly not possible. I have considered what if.
If my mother had decided not to have me. So what for me. I would never have known. So would she have been right or wrong? How can you make that decision for what never was?

Suppose a woman decides to go out tonight. Meets up with a fellow. Gets a little drunk? He is a sexy man.....Later a decision has to be made. Suppose she decides to stay home instead. Aside from the extent of some cellular growth.....what difference?

The idea and the hard decisions of abortion are within a persons concepts of life in it's many aspects. I would have not faulted my mother if she had decided not to have me. It is only much much later that any idea of me having feelings about it, having any stake in it, existed. I could never have wished she had had me. There have been times, I wish she hadn't.

Any woman who is facing the decision must realise there is not a reason for guilt. There may be lessons to learn. If not learned then there is reason for shame if it happens again.

The mans right to choose is a distant second. He had his choice earlier, as did she. But looking at the statistics of who abandons who.....I'd give the woman the final say.

If you wish to have a child, and give it all the best you can. It seems a good idea to sometimes take a later chance.

Nature allows many animals to self terminate pregnancies. Nature often takes the choice away. Abortion is a choice. It always has been. The methods are better now. The decision is the hard part. Do not put guilt upon it, that does not yet exist.


(in reply to cuddleheart50)
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