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RE: Abortion - 7/1/2006 9:31:11 PM   
gardenbluebird


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i consider it the option of last resort.  It is a very poor form of birth control, but sometimes things happen.  We all make mistakes, occasionally very serious ones.  My personal standard is it is acceptable prior to 10 weeks, that is when brainwaves start.


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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 2:15:44 PM   
Lashra


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It's a woman's choice and no government or religion should ever interfere in that decision. Its HER body what she does with it is her business.

~Lashra

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 2:27:42 PM   
perverseangelic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

It's a woman's choice and no government or religion should ever interfere in that decision. Its HER body what she does with it is her business.

~Lashra

(emphasis mine)

I actually disagree with this. That is, I believe that the government has no right to interfear, yes, but religion has every right. Religion can come up with any rules it wants for the practitioners of that religion.

It's the individual's choice, however, whether they want to follow that religion. I think it's an important distinction.


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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 3:12:02 PM   
BBWDomme1


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The issue of abortion is highly charged and one that may very well determine the future direction of the United States.  That stark fact concerns me in ways that often boggle my mind.

I belive in safe and legal abortion.  I believe that a woman should have the right to make that decision.  I also understand that many do not agree with me and I can respect that.

But for me, class and socioeconomic components compound an already complicated issue.  Here's why.....

Upper middle class and the rich have always had access to abortion.  Before it was legal, young women were quietly taken to the family doctor to recieve a "D&C."  The charted reasons were things like exessive bleeding and the like.  Pregnancy nor termination were never entered into the patient record.  For those women whose doctors would not perform the procedure, a plane trip to another state or country accomplished the termination. 

It has always been women of lower economic class that suffered back alley abortions, self-induced remedies and life threatening procedures at the hands of  the untrained.  By far, poor women lost thier lives to infection, bleeding and butchered procedures.

Outlaw safe and legal abortion today and it is the poor who will bear the brunt.  Women of means will continue to terminate unwanted pregnancies and simply call it something different.

And for me..................that is simply unfair..................

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 4:36:57 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

It's a woman's choice and no government or religion should ever interfere in that decision. Its HER body what she does with it is her business.

~Lashra


While I agree that women should have the right to make a decision to have an abortion or not, it is a surgeon's right to refuse to perform abortion.

This whole argument that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her own body is basically flawed because their are whole raft of laws as to what people can and can't do with their body. There are a whole boat load of ethical and moral reasons why someone might not want to aid a woman with an abortion because one has to decide when the fetus is an independent life and should that life end up in a hospital incinerator. A sound argument might prove better than a slogan.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/2/2006 4:39:23 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 7:55:22 PM   
MistressLorelei


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

It's a woman's choice and no government or religion should ever interfere in that decision. Its HER body what she does with it is her business.

~Lashra

(emphasis mine)

I actually disagree with this. That is, I believe that the government has no right to interfear, yes, but religion has every right. Religion can come up with any rules it wants for the practitioners of that religion.

It's the individual's choice, however, whether they want to follow that religion. I think it's an important distinction.



This post not directed at anyone specific...

I have no problem with religion dictating whether an abortion is 'allowable' or not.  People are free to choose their religion, or to not abide by the 'laws' set forth by the religions they choose. 

I do have a problem with theocracy.   Same sex marriages rights and abortion rights are two big reasons why. A religious government is why abortion rights are back in Our Supreme Court, and why same sex marriages have not been granted (most everywhere).  Christianity teaches us that homosexuality is a  sinful, intentionally deviant act, and that human life begins as conception.

Our Founding Fathers wanted to ensure the separation of religion and government, yet in about the 1950's the U.S. became a "Christian Nation", and now more than ever, religion is what is governing our government.

I can imagine the uproar of Christians, should a Wiccan or a Muslim be elected President, or granted a seat in the Supreme Court, and be free to govern using his/her religious philosophy.  Your religious philosophy probably isn't mine, but the laws need to work for both of us... it can't when theocracy exists.

I am sure no one here would object to "In Goddess (Or Allah) We Trust" on our currency, or perhaps being sworn in on the Koran... so Help Me Mohammed?

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 7/2/2006 8:22:31 PM >

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 8:51:23 PM   
irishbynature


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Basically, I feel this way: "Keep the government off of my body, out of my personal life decisions and outta my bed." Nuff said!

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 9:14:48 PM   
TheJackal


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I don't really have much of a strong opinion on abortion itself, right or wrong, etc...  What irks me is the government sticking itself into places where it don't belong.  This is a personal choice and banning abortion doesn't make it go away.  When Texas banned it it still went on, just like the prohibition era didn't stop alcohol production.

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RE: Abortion - 7/2/2006 9:27:05 PM   
MistressLorelei


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJackal

I don't really have much of a strong opinion on abortion itself, right or wrong, etc...  What irks me is the government sticking itself into places where it don't belong.  This is a personal choice and banning abortion doesn't make it go away.  When Texas banned it it still went on, just like the prohibition era didn't stop alcohol production.


You said it.  If abortion becomes a criminal act, it can be added to the list of criminal acts that occur every minute in the U.S..  Except some of these illegal acts which would kill and injure many who would seek illegal abortions, can be easily prevented. 

We will have to make room in our prisons for abortion doctors and the young women who hired them, as well as hold funerals for the women who hired untrained, unsanitary abortion personnel.

(in reply to TheJackal)
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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 6:57:49 AM   
mtumwawaBwana


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cuddles...this isn't of what you seek in answer...but it is mpov. at my ago, knowing what i now know, having been through what i have been, and seeing what i have seen.......


i would give my right arm, a kidney, and maybe even my soul to the devil of hades its self, (if they were actually mine to give), to have a chance at having just one more child.

sigh....

my one regret in life?? that i was too young, dumb, and full of self to know better than to wait till it was too late to have those cherished jewels we all call "unmentionables".

Master tells me i should be thankful i have the two i do............but i want more, and lament i didn't have more.

sigh.....

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 7:08:48 AM   
Arpig


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It is between a woman and her God(dess).
I do not think the sperm-donor has any real right to demand a say in it, as it isn't his body in question.
As to the right or wrong of abortion, again, that is a question for each woman to answer her own conciensce, it really isn't the business of the rest of us.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/3/2006 7:09:16 AM >


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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 8:10:43 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

It's a woman's choice and no government or religion should ever interfere in that decision. Its HER body what she does with it is her business.

~Lashra


While I agree that women should have the right to make a decision to have an abortion or not, it is a surgeon's right to refuse to perform abortion.

This whole argument that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her own body is basically flawed because their are whole raft of laws as to what people can and can't do with their body. There are a whole boat load of ethical and moral reasons why someone might not want to aid a woman with an abortion because one has to decide when the fetus is an independent life and should that life end up in a hospital incinerator. A sound argument might prove better than a slogan.


I hope that I am never in a position where I have to make a decision about abortion. If pregnancy were to happen at this point in my life it would not only be inconvenient, it would be downright dangerous to me. Abortion is not something that I believe I could personally live with.

I can not condemn someone for their decision as to whether or not have an abortion. That is extremely personal and a choice that they will have to bear the repercussions of for the rest of their lives.

I do believe that there needs to be some regulation on it...and I also believe that at the very least the decision should include the assistance of someone who is an outside party that is not emotionally involved. Not to make the decision...but to be able to clearly see and review the options and ramifications. An abortion counselor if you will.

I believe that abortion is a decision that far too many take lightly. Many years ago I worked for an Ob/Gyn. One day a woman came in and the doc informed her she was pregnant. He asked me to take her in the standard "new pregnancy" informational pamphlets and her first samples of prenatal vitamins. As I started my instructions she cut me off with "you can just quit because I most likely won't keep this kid". I was a little taken aback by her snappy tone but I respected her right to make that decision for herself. After she had left I was talking with Dr. about it. He grabbed her chart and pointed out something that I had overlooked. If she had this abortion....it would be her 17th abortion!!!! She was on no form of birth control and was using abortion as her preferred method. Sad. I don't know if she aborted or not....the Dr. I worked for made it very clear to her that although he did indeed do abortions, he would have no part in her chosen method of birth control.

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 9:09:48 AM   
caitlyn


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I feel it's better to allow a child to be aborted, then to allow a child to be born into a situation that is unhealthy for children, or the child is unwanted.
 
Allow a single exception.
 
If it happens again, give the child up for adoption, and abort the parents instead.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 9:14:38 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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(Quick reply, here... so no, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular)
 
I have what may be a rather singular perspective on this rather charged issue.  It may not be as unique as I'd like to think - but we all have our moments of egocentrism. 
 
I've had to face (more than once) the prospect of aborting - and have had (what I felt was) no choice about having the procedure at one point.  It's not an easy decision to face under the "best" of circumstances.  And even when it's Necessary, you spend the rest of your life questioning yourself about whether you're Sure you did the right thing, regardless of which decision you make.
 
Prior to the birth of my eldest (who is about to turn 19)  I miscarried 3 times, all early, first trimester miscarriages, two of which I wasn't even sure I was pregnant until the miscarrage happened.  I thought nothing of it when they occured, other than relief that I wasn't stuck carrying a child that I wasn't ready to deal with, and further relief that I didn't have to make the decision whether to terminate. 
 
Then I became pregnant with my older daughter and didn't miscarry (though I pretty much hoped I would) so I let my ex-husband know what was going on.  I included him in the decision of whether to continue the pregnancy or abort, even though my instincts were screaming at me that the right thing to do was to end the pregnancy.  He was thrilled and wanted the child, so I went against my instincts.  My older daughter, when born, was plagued with multiple handicaps due to genetic flaws that we were previously unaware of.  For a long time, we didn't expect her to survive - or if she did, we expected her to be in a complete vegitative state for whatever lifespan she managed.  We got lucky, such was not the case.  Although she will never be "normal" or even Functional in society, she survived and managed to be at least trainable to go into a supervised living facility.  It has cost more in terms of emotional upheaval - and finances - than anyone should ever have to face to get her to that point.
 
Every time I became pregnant after her, I was faced with the knowledge that the same conditions - or Worse - faced any child that I bore.  The defects were genetically based; there was no escaping them.  Fortunately, those same defects caused miscarriages time and again, taking the decision out of my hands.  At least, miscarriages prevented me from facing the decision until a set of twins.  One miscarried, the other didn't, and it was evident from various tests that the second twin wouldn't likely survive to be born, much less survive without machines if it Did last long enough for birth.  I made the choice, and decided right then that if I were faced with any further pregnancies that didn't miscarry, that I WOULD have them terminated if in-utero testing showed the same genetic flaw.  (There was, after all, a slim chance that it wouldn't show up in Every child - the chance simply got smaller every time I miscarried or had a teminated pregnancy that held that defect.)
 
Had aborting not been a Legal option for me - I would have been faced with months of emotional agony and physical illness.  I would have to have dealt with the fact that what remained in the womb wasn't and never would be a "child" - it was simply a parasitic growth, little different from a tumor, waiting to be excised.  I would have been in a position of being forced to deal with the severe handicaps of one child whom I was already responcible for while at least partially incapacitated by things continuing.  And if, by some off chance, the fetus had managed to actually survive and been born - I would have been faced with a second handicapped child, in even worse condition than the one I already had, to cope with those problems on top of everything else.  I would have been lucky, really, not to wind up permanently esconced in a mental institution from nervous breakdown.  Which would have left it up to the state (that's all you taxpayers out there) to deal with the added financial burden of both my care and the care of not one but TWO children who would never be a functional, self sustaining portion of society.
 
I still find myself wondering at times, whether I made the right decisions, both with my 19 yr old and with the twin that I later terminated.  Wondering whether if I had waited just a bit longer if the pregnancy wouldn't have finished ending itself.  Wondering whether I should consider myself a murderer, or if there was really anything there to consider human TO murder.  Wondering, even, whether there was a chance that all the tests were wrong and the fetus could have turned out to be a fully functioning child without handicaps if we had allowed the pregnancy to continue.  None of those are questions that I will likely ever find satisfactory answers to. 
 
The point of all this?  The next time you sit in judgement and give blanket condemnation for the procedure - keep a few things in mind.  Every woman who faces the procedure faces her own inner demons over it in some form or fashion.  Every child born with severe handicaps who could have been terminated in utero - places a financial drain on society, picking up the tab for their medical care.  Every child born to a poverty striken family - places a financial drain on society, picking up the tab for feeding and clothing them.  Government money to help raise those children isn't "free" money - it has to come from somewhere - and that Somewhere is YOU.  You the Taxpayer. 
 
I will never condone aborting as a means of birth control - there are far to many other options available.  That does not mean, however, that I will ever agree that it should be outlawed or made unavailable.  To often, it isn't the "better" choice - it's the Only choice.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 9:25:26 AM   
mistoferin


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I'm not trying to be a bitch here but....so many miscarriages, an abortion....and above all else, your wish not to have children and possibly carry on those genetic problems.....why wasn't some reliable or more reliable form of birth control being used? Even sterilization in your case if you were comfortable in the decision to bear no more children.

As I said....not trying to be a bitch...just trying to understand.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 9:30:11 AM   
Wulfchyld


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
He grabbed her chart and pointed out something that I had overlooked. If she had this abortion....it would be her 17th abortion!!!! She was on no form of birth control and was using abortion as her preferred method. .


Geez erin. I think that would have called for a tubal ligation through the nostrils on the spot!

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 9:43:55 AM   
mtumwawaBwana


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(thinking to my self..."oooh why, ooooh why can't i spell age correctly?")

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 10:05:24 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I'm not trying to be a bitch here but....so many miscarriages, an abortion....and above all else, your wish not to have children and possibly carry on those genetic problems.....why wasn't some reliable or more reliable form of birth control being used? Even sterilization in your case if you were comfortable in the decision to bear no more children.

As I said....not trying to be a bitch...just trying to understand.


I tried practically every method of birth control available on the market during that period, Erin - and after the birth of my younger child (the only one out of all my pregnancies NOT to have the genetic defect show up) I DID get the equipment removed.  I was 32 when my younger was born - and went through 6 miscarriages (which includes that set of twins) during the 11 year span between the 19 yr old and the 8 yr old.  After my 19  yr old was born (she was a Pill baby, btw - I was on the pill when I became pregnant with her) - I switched method and went to IUD for a while.  When I became pregnant despite that, I went back to the pill but on a different type and higher dosage.  I went through combinations of spermicide and condoms, spermicide and sponge, diaphram, IUD, and 2 types of pill.  Never got around to attempting the implants, though I was considering changing to that when I went through my final pregancy - the one which finally birthed a healthy, "normal" child.  It took 11 years to go through all that.  It wasn't a short span of time, and there was always quite a while when we were fairly certain that I'd found "the" method that was actually going to Work.  The only "unprotected" pregnancies to happen, in fact, were the ones prior to my 19 yr old's birth - and all 3 of those miscarriages happened within a year and a half.  (I was young and dumb and mistakenly considered myself invincible, like so many of us do at 18 and 19.)
 
Thing is, every time I became pregnant - before a miscarriage could happen - there was always a small part of me that kept saying "maybe This time it'll be ok, the child will be viable, there won't be any problems with the pregnancy."  It was a constant internal war with myself, on some levels.  Half of me dreading the idea and sure that if the kid was born it was going to have problems to mirror or exceed my oldest's - the other half begging fate that this time it would be different.  I knew that the chances were growing smaller and smaller.  Logic dictated in my more "rational" thoughts that it would be a better choice to simply have the equipment removed - but that causes us to face a different Set of problems, not the least of which is questioning our own femininity. The first pregnancy after my 19 yr old was born - I asked the doctor I was seeing about a tubal once the miscarriage happened.  I was about to turn 23 at the time, and the doctor was... eh... Reluctant (adamant) that it was a bad idea.  She was certain that I would change my mind about wanting another child, and didn't acknowledge the chances were slim of me having one that wasn't handicapped.  I wouldn't Allow myself to consider it as an option again until I was in my 30s - because once I reached my 30s, at least the doctor wasn't spouting "you're young still and may want a second child later."  I faced enough of the questioning about my femininity every couple of years when I would miscarry again, without the arguements involved from the local medical practioners about what I Really wanted.  When all is said and done, part of it comes down to the simple fact that - the human psyche being what it is, I internally shielded myself from the conflict by the time my 8 yr old was concieved.  It had become so painful, pyschologically, to even Consider the potential in either direction (miscarrying or having a second child with problems) that I Allowed myself to take the opinion one doctor gave me and turn it into a sort of internal gospel.  "You aren't capable of carrying to term due to XYZ, so don't worry about it when/if this method fails."  In a way, it was very much a cop out - yet it allowed me to live with myself, and to quit being angry (both with myself, and with the medical profession) when yet another form of birth control measure would fail.
 
In the long run, the 6 miscarriages I faced between my 2 children are a drop in the bucket.  There are women who are gladly having 10 kids, even with today's population pressures being what they are.  There have historically been more women who faced multiple miscarriages than those who carried consistantly to term.  I'm not all that unique or unusual in That regard.  Over the years my perspective about it all has changed, and then changed again, every time I went through a pregnancy or contemplated going through a pregnancy.  I ended up developing a distinct dislike for small children over time - caused by a combination of things like my own inability to carry without problems, and the difficulties I faced as a single parent of a severely handicapped child.  While it doesn't change how I now react to being around small children - I have at least come to recognize it as a form of internal defence mechanism.  Funny what the human psyche can rationalize to protect itself, eh?

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 1:38:10 PM   
Kedikat


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There is a very interesting and controversial item in a book called Freakonomics.
There was a marked decline in crime rates at one point. A lot of people were coming up with various ideas as to why.
An interesting fellow noticed that there was a definite link between Roe V Wade being settled in favour of a womans right to abortion and the fact that a generation of people would have been coming into their prime crime committing years.

It could even be tracked to the timing of certain states being later to adopt legal abortion. The drop in crime rates matched the timing of allowing abortion.

It seems that a great number of women who were now free to have abortions due to their bad circumstances, did so. And it had an effect on society as a whole. And a great number of possibly sad lives, did not happen.

The book makes some very striking links of things. And the methods and sources of info are very well cited. Also a great read to learn how stats are warped too.

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RE: Abortion - 7/3/2006 1:51:23 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

There is a very interesting and controversial item in a book called Freakonomics.
There was a marked decline in crime rates at one point. A lot of people were coming up with various ideas as to why.
An interesting fellow noticed that there was a definite link between Roe V Wade being settled in favour of a womans right to abortion and the fact that a generation of people would have been coming into their prime crime committing years.

It could even be tracked to the timing of certain states being later to adopt legal abortion. The drop in crime rates matched the timing of allowing abortion.

It seems that a great number of women who were now free to have abortions due to their bad circumstances, did so. And it had an effect on society as a whole. And a great number of possibly sad lives, did not happen.

The book makes some very striking links of things. And the methods and sources of info are very well cited. Also a great read to learn how stats are warped too.



It is indeed an interesting book, Kedi, but even if the assumed correlation to abortion and a drop in the crime rate is correct, I'd like to see a raising of hands of those that think society should encourage abortions in certain neighborhoods as a way to fight crime?

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