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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:37:00 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ?


If he kills the black guy in such a way as to send a message of terror to the black community, like the KKK used to do by lynching, then it's very different from some mugging gone wrong. In the mugging gone wrong, the victim is that one dead guy. In a lynching, the victim is every black person in the community.

It's just like how only three people actually died in the Boston marathon bombing, but it had far more effect on the city and country than three regular murders would have.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:37:26 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Edited for clarity in continuity:

quote:

Yep. The term "hate crime" can make people think - "oh, it's just when a criminal hates the person, how can we judge that?", like Phydeaux here. But that's a total misunderstanding.

Hate crimes aren't about private feelings of one criminal. Hate crimes are when that criminal commits a crime in order to terrify and control a group of people. For example, when someone burns a cross on the yard of a black family, that person isn't just committing arson - they're trying to scare that family and probably other black families. Hate crimes aren't "thought crimes" - they're basically a form of terrorism.


And we have a whole range of charges that would cover those additional crimes, Graceadieu. Penalty enhancement based on how a person thinks are not appropriate in a society that values individual free thought. Even if the thought is something really ugly and stupid.



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/15/2013 10:41:54 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:41:22 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And we have a whole range of charges that would cover those additional crimes, Graceadieu.


Yes, we do. They're called hate crimes charges.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:44:14 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Yes they should get a normal sentence.

Felony assault and battery is breaking the social contract. An individual has "attacked" society. That is what a crime is after all. The reasons why do not matter. This infraction of the social contract carries this penalty.

Hate crimes are a bias motivated crime. This means that the reasons why DO matter. Felony assault and battery does not become better or worse because of how a perpetrator FEELS about his victim.

After all, what is the crime? Beating someone half to death (violation of the social contract) or thinking that this race/sex/religion/whatever are scum suckers who SHOULD be beaten half to death (which may be assoholic, but does NOT violate the social contract)?

Let's examine 3 scenarios
1) A simple bar fight with some kind of significant injury. Can be charged as a felony. I think most people would agree this is the baseline for the punishment of said crime

2) A "collection agent" for a bookie or a loan shark hunts a guy down and breaks his arm. Felony assault and battery is just the beginning of the crimes that can be charged in this incident. Society has decided that this sort of thing is more unacceptable than scenario 1.

3) A gay bashing where the bashers hunted for a gay person to attack with no hate crime law. This would be treated as the same as scenario 1 while I think most people would agree it is at least as serious as scenario 2 which is why hate crime laws do make sense in at least some situations.



That seems like a fair point but in the case of scenario 3, why is it so much worse for the bashers hunting a gay guy than hunting down anyone just for fun and bashing them ? What if they're hunting for women to bash ? Is that as bad as hunting gays or is it kind of in between bashing gays and bashing for a thrill ?


< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 9/15/2013 10:55:37 PM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:47:47 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And we have a whole range of charges that would cover those additional crimes, Graceadieu.


Yes, we do. They're called hate crimes charges.



No. They are called things like making terrorist threats. They are the sort of charges that apply to all sorts of motivations, not just politically incorrect ones. The crime is the the crime. The rationalization the criminal comes up with is not.


Ya'll have a nice night

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 11:08:25 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ?


If he kills the black guy in such a way as to send a message of terror to the black community, like the KKK used to do by lynching, then it's very different from some mugging gone wrong. In the mugging gone wrong, the victim is that one dead guy. In a lynching, the victim is every black person in the community.

It's just like how only three people actually died in the Boston marathon bombing, but it had far more effect on the city and country than three regular murders would have.


I don't have a problem with the terrorism component that enhances penalties. The Boston Bombing ? I mean come on, there's all kinds of shit to charge with that one.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 2:18:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It isn't a free speech thing



Please don't post such pablum at me. Hate crime legislation is not about establishing motive, it is about penalty enhancement for holding certain views. Peddle your dream-otheticals elsewhere.


The pablum is all yours TH. It is simply wrong to claim that: "it is about penalty enhancement for holding certain views."

Hate crime sentence loadings are there because hate has been proved, in a court of law, to be the the underlying motive that caused the crime. Bigots are free to have as many bigoted views as they please. It is only when they act on these views in an illegal manner, that they commit crimes motivated by their hate, that hate crime loadings come in to play

A further matter to consider is this: Research has shown that often the people who commit hate crimes are acting under the delusion that their behaviour is socially approved. They express surprise, disappointment and indignation when they are charged and convicted for their hate-driven crimes. They express a sense of betrayal - in their view, society should have approved of their obnoxious behaviour and they feel let down or betrayed to find out otherwise.

A further matter to consider is this: It is accepted that likelihood of re-offending is a legitimate issue to be considered as part of sentencing. Unless it is made crystal clear to these moronic thugs that their hate crimes are intolerable, there is every likelihood of their re-offending.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/16/2013 2:21:52 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 2:54:31 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Yes they should get a normal sentence.

Felony assault and battery is breaking the social contract. An individual has "attacked" society. That is what a crime is after all. The reasons why do not matter. This infraction of the social contract carries this penalty.

Hate crimes are a bias motivated crime. This means that the reasons why DO matter. Felony assault and battery does not become better or worse because of how a perpetrator FEELS about his victim.

After all, what is the crime? Beating someone half to death (violation of the social contract) or thinking that this race/sex/religion/whatever are scum suckers who SHOULD be beaten half to death (which may be assoholic, but does NOT violate the social contract)?

Let's examine 3 scenarios
1) A simple bar fight with some kind of significant injury. Can be charged as a felony. I think most people would agree this is the baseline for the punishment of said crime

2) A "collection agent" for a bookie or a loan shark hunts a guy down and breaks his arm. Felony assault and battery is just the beginning of the crimes that can be charged in this incident. Society has decided that this sort of thing is more unacceptable than scenario 1.

3) A gay bashing where the bashers hunted for a gay person to attack with no hate crime law. This would be treated as the same as scenario 1 while I think most people would agree it is at least as serious as scenario 2 which is why hate crime laws do make sense in at least some situations.



That seems like a fair point but in the case of scenario 3, why is it so much worse for the bashers hunting a gay guy than hunting down anyone just for fun and bashing them ? What if they're hunting for women to bash ? Is that as bad as hunting gays or is it kind of in between bashing gays and bashing for a thrill ?


If the bashers set out to attack a woman just because she was a woman that would also qualify as a hate crime.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:15:26 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.




It's a free speech thing. Based on our prior conversations on the subject, Polite, I don't see any point trying to elaborate. People treasure it, or they don't.



FFS Rich......... Re-read your post and then wonder about my entitlement to free speech.

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:38:40 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
If my wife is raped, or my son beaten to within an inch of his life, I don't give a damn why the perpetrator did it. He did it, and that's the end of it. If there's anything in this world that I don't want to hear, it's that the miscreant held views that would have gotten him a stiffer sentence if my wife had been black, or my son had been gay, "but since they're not, there's nothing else we can do."

I'll grant that psychologists and sociologists have legitimate reasons for asking such questions. I'll even grant the answers may reflect a social problem that the legislature needs to enact a law to address. But letting the offender get off easier because my wife wasn't black, or my son wasn't gay, cannot be dressed up as a solution to a social problem. It's an institutionalized obscenity.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/16/2013 4:40:02 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:43:01 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		One of the first questions someone asks when they or someone else they love, is killed, the first question is WHY.
Motive is one of the first things the police look into
WHY is very important.


_____________________________

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Dont Hate Love

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 5:00:49 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

One of the first questions someone asks when they or someone else they love, is killed, the first question is WHY.
Motive is one of the first things the police look into
WHY is very important.

Oh absolutely. If they only did it because they were bored, that would change everything.

K.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:25:11 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.



Hate speech is free speech that other people hate. If the only speech that is free is what everybody likes, it isn't very free at all, is it?



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:30:55 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

That is a rather broad statement. Do you make it so that you can demonize any that oppose your view? I do not like the idea of hate crime laws and I don't fit your demon.

There are many examples of people just being pissed and using a derogatory that could be construed as something that supports hate crime, when in fact there wasn't any hate towards a group but just the one person they were pissed at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

The people opposed to hate crime legislation are generally ones who want to continue spreading hate of one group or another. So calling those people civilized is a bit of a stretch.



If someone is pissed at an individual and use racial slurs or whatever, it shows they have a bias against the group in the first place because otherwise why would they use the term if they were mad at an individual? If they called someone a damn fag because they are mad at them, it indicates they don't like gay people because they slurred the person with it, if they were pissed at them, they could call them scumbag, asshole, you name it.


Sometimes people use words to cause as much anger and hurt in someone else, when they themselves are angry. Have a good friend named David that calls his lover a faggot when they get in a heated argument. Does that mean my friend David hates homosexuals when he is one? That is just one easy example. People say things in the heat of the moment that they don't really mean all of the time, just look at some couples arguments for examples.

quote:


Sorry, but that is a lame assed excuse "oh, he doesn't hate blacks, why, some of his best friends are black". if in the heat of the moment you are pissed at an individual and slur them because of who they are, it says you don't exactly feel all that great about the group in question, since in effect your are blaming their ethnicity or sexual orientation for them being a scummy person.


Lame ass excuse? Kind of like yours is a dumbass explanation? See your emotions are showing now. You are applying logic to an emotional situation, but your emotions are showing in how you express yourself. I am not saying everyone that uses those words may just be saying them out of anger to cause pain, without any type of hatred for that group. I am saying that no one can read minds, and there are many examples of people using those words when they don't really hate a group.

quote:


BTW, despite what the right wing claims, it is not easy to bring hate crimes charges, it takes a chain of evidence to prove these cases, cases that are dubious don't get brought up like that, even in NYC where you would figure it would be common. If a guy in the heat of the moment called someone a racial slur, and then later on let's say beat up someone of that group, it is unlikely it would hold weight, it would take a pattern of showing bias for someone to be charged. I have two ex NYC DA's in my family and know a couple of investigators for that same office, and I asked them about that, and they said that in practice it takes solid evidence to even bring someone up on those charges, DA's are careful with it, because otherwise the law would become a nuisance and would be counterproductive.


And? It still doesn't mean 1) That some are convicted when in fact they may not have any hatred to that group 2) I believe in equitable rights under the law, which means no group gets any special attention, laws, etc. A murder or assault is heinous on it's own merits. It is not more heinous because someone is different in a special way designated by law. When people start understanding and actually pushing that forward, then maybe we will see people stop looking at others and judging by the color of their skin, sexual preference, hair color or lack of IQ.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:33:26 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it would be murder, just like anyone else getting shot and the additional laws are unneeded. Just uphold the laws already there.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:37:42 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It isn't a free speech thing



Please don't post such pablum at me. Hate crime legislation is not about establishing motive, it is about penalty enhancement for holding certain views. Peddle your dream-otheticals elsewhere.

You bet you ass it is a penality enhancement for holding certian views...Those views being in direct opposition to the constitution of my country.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:47:51 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



And we have a whole range of charges that would cover those additional crimes, Graceadieu. Penalty enhancement based on how a person thinks are not appropriate in a society that values individual free thought. Even if the thought is something really ugly and stupid.



Only the wilfully ignorant would believe that shit. Penality enhancement for those ho would subvert the constitution of my country is most appropriate. They can think what they want but when their thoughts become actions then those actions and the thoughts that directed them are subject to sanction.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:51:20 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

If he kills the black guy in such a way as to send a message of terror to the black community, like the KKK used to do by lynching, then it's very different from some mugging gone wrong. In the mugging gone wrong, the victim is that one dead guy. In a lynching, the victim is every black person in the community.

That's how I see it.

When I was gay-bashed some years ago, knowing that I'd been attacked for who I am added a whole layer of pain to the physical wounds.

Matthew Shepard's death left me and countless others thinking, "That could have been me." I realize the Jimenez book may undercut the accuracy of the reaction, but that's how we felt at the time. I'll be interested to see what Jimenez makes of the killers' taking the trouble to tie Shepard, scarecrow style, to a fence and leave him there for all the world to see.

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:53:52 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Yes they should get a normal sentence.

Felony assault and battery is breaking the social contract. An individual has "attacked" society. That is what a crime is after all. The reasons why do not matter. This infraction of the social contract carries this penalty.

Hate crimes are a bias motivated crime. This means that the reasons why DO matter. Felony assault and battery does not become better or worse because of how a perpetrator FEELS about his victim.

After all, what is the crime? Beating someone half to death (violation of the social contract) or thinking that this race/sex/religion/whatever are scum suckers who SHOULD be beaten half to death (which may be assoholic, but does NOT violate the social contract)?

Let's examine 3 scenarios
1) A simple bar fight with some kind of significant injury. Can be charged as a felony. I think most people would agree this is the baseline for the punishment of said crime

2) A "collection agent" for a bookie or a loan shark hunts a guy down and breaks his arm. Felony assault and battery is just the beginning of the crimes that can be charged in this incident. Society has decided that this sort of thing is more unacceptable than scenario 1.

3) A gay bashing where the bashers hunted for a gay person to attack with no hate crime law. This would be treated as the same as scenario 1 while I think most people would agree it is at least as serious as scenario 2 which is why hate crime laws do make sense in at least some situations.



That seems like a fair point but in the case of scenario 3, why is it so much worse for the bashers hunting a gay guy than hunting down anyone just for fun and bashing them ? What if they're hunting for women to bash ? Is that as bad as hunting gays or is it kind of in between bashing gays and bashing for a thrill ?


If the bashers set out to attack a woman just because she was a woman that would also qualify as a hate crime.


So you are saying if a bunch of bashers hunt down a woman, beat her up
and break her nose for a thrill , it's not as bad as if they did the exact same thing because they hate women ? The penalties should be more severe for the hate bashers than if they were thrill bashers ? I just have to disagree.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 6:55:48 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


If my wife is raped, or my son beaten to within an inch of his life, I don't give a damn why the perpetrator did it. He did it, and that's the end of it. If there's anything in this world that I don't want to hear, it's that the miscreant held views that would have gotten him a stiffer sentence if my wife had been black, or my son had been gay, "but since they're not, there's nothing else we can do."


It is not a function of whether this person held those views but that those were the reasons for the crime...your wife was raped because she was black and your son was beaten because he was gay...This sends the msg to you to marry who "we" approve of and teach your children to have sex the way "we" approve of or "we" will come and repeat this lesson until you "get your mind right".

quote:

I'll grant that psychologists and sociologists have legitimate reasons for asking such questions. I'll even grant the answers may reflect a social problem that the legislature needs to enact a law to address. But letting the offender get off easier because my wife wasn't black, or my son wasn't gay, cannot be dressed up as a solution to a social problem. It's an institutionalized obscenity.


Your wife wasnt raped because she was black she was raped because she was there. Your son was not beaten because he was gay he was beaten because he was there.
If as you state the legislature has the authority to add enhancements to crimes for given reasons why the objection to this?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 60
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