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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:54:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Society shouldn't tolerate any of it. Especially if someone, whoever for whatever reason is hunted down and attacked, beaten or killed. Why is it so much worse one way or the other if a guy hunts down and beats up your straight brother or the guy hunts down and beats up your gay brother ?

Have you ever heard of someone being hunted down and beaten for no reason? The only time such an event would be treated the same as a bar fight is when it is a hate crime.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:56:09 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.




It's a free speech thing. Based on our prior conversations on the subject, Polite, I don't see any point trying to elaborate. People treasure it, or they don't.

You can say anything you like. However if you say a bunch of slurs while beating a random stranger that should be taken into account as possibly the motive behind the attack.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 8:56:46 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Yes they should get a normal sentence.

Felony assault and battery is breaking the social contract. An individual has "attacked" society. That is what a crime is after all. The reasons why do not matter. This infraction of the social contract carries this penalty.

Hate crimes are a bias motivated crime. This means that the reasons why DO matter. Felony assault and battery does not become better or worse because of how a perpetrator FEELS about his victim.

After all, what is the crime? Beating someone half to death (violation of the social contract) or thinking that this race/sex/religion/whatever are scum suckers who SHOULD be beaten half to death (which may be assoholic, but does NOT violate the social contract)?

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:11:31 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		That is a rather broad statement. Do you make it so that you can demonize any that oppose your view? I do not like the idea of hate crime laws and I don't fit your demon.

There are many examples of people just being pissed and using a derogatory that could be construed as something that supports hate crime, when in fact there wasn't any hate towards a group but just the one person they were pissed at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

The people opposed to hate crime legislation are generally ones who want to continue spreading hate of one group or another. So calling those people civilized is a bit of a stretch.



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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:12:40 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		No it would be murder, just like anyone else getting shot and the additional laws are unneeded. Just uphold the laws already there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"

quote:

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:24:22 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:31:24 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

Hate crime legislation isn't an abomination, the abomination is that there are people in this country, luke Phydeaux, who think there are people who deserve to be beaten up or killed for who they are and the perpetrators get away with it. The trash down south who lynched blacks or killed a teenage black kid for whistling at a white woman routinely were never prosecuted by their 'peers' (more trash), it took federal civil rights laws to get these animals persecuted. You kill someone gay down south, and often cops and prosecutors and judges laughed about it; and the list goes own.

The reason for hate crimes legislation is if charged with a hate crime, some bigoted judge or jury can't give a bs sentence,the extra penalties even if the judge thought killing or hurting someone who was gay or muslim or wahtever wasn't a big deal, make it so that the perp gets an appropriate sentence.

Put it this way, down south if a white person kills a black person (not talking hate crime necessarily), the penalties are significantly less harsh then if a black kills a white, and the reason for hate crimes is bias is in our justice system that denies victims justice. I keep hearing how this is 'unequal rights', but the reality is if a straight white man or woman has a crime committed against them and the perp is found and they believed, for example, that someone targeted them because they were white, law enforcement would hit them hard. More importantly, hate crimes don't give special treatment to anyone, blacks and hispanics have been convicted and given stiff sentences for hurting whites or asians, for example.

Hate crimes isn't thought crime, that is a lie of the right wing, you can't get charged with a hate crime for hating someone, you get charged with a hate crime when your thoughts lead you to do something against someone because you hate them, it is about motive.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:35:50 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

The answer to your question is if the white guy kills the black guy they are likely to get a reduced sentence compared to let's say if a black person kills a white person. The answer to your question is if you kill someone for 50 bucks, you are motivated by something different than hate, whereas tracking someone down simply because they are different is a much more heinous crime. More importantly, the reason is to send a message to people you have the right to hate people, but if you act on it, the state will hit you hard, it is a deterrent. More importantly, it also stops judges from, for example, looking at the murder of a gay person or a trans person or a black killed by a white supremecists and saying in effect the victim deserved it.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:38:44 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekate80

There's plenty of precedent in American law, and I imagine many other places, for the motive of a crime to matter when it comes to what the person is charged with. In the case of murder, motive and whether or not there was planning ahead of time are the usual determinating factors in whether the crime was first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or voluntary manslaughter. There's some variance by jurisdiction, but that's the general situation.

I'm not sure why a crime based on bias only counts if it's against one of a few specific groups, though. Attacking someone because you hate his/her career doesn't seem fundamentally different from an attack because you hate his/her religion, but the first case wouldn't typically be classified as a hate crime.

It is based on categories covered in federal rights legislation, and a career isn't covered in part because a career is a chosen profession, not inherent to who someone is. More importantly, there isn't a heck of a lot of cases of someone being hurt or murdered cause they were an accountant or whatever.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:44:50 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.




It's a free speech thing. Based on our prior conversations on the subject, Polite, I don't see any point trying to elaborate. People treasure it, or they don't.

It isn't a free speech thing, that is the biggest lie of the hate crimes complainers, that it violates free speech. I defy you to give me one example where someone has been charged with a hate crime purely based on speech. In the case of hate crimes, an accused's words and writings can be used to show their state of mind and to try and prove they hurt the victim because of that hate. It is no different then if some idiot in a bar spouts off about how wives are all cheating sluts who deserve to die, and that is introduced in evidence at trial when he is accused of attempting to kill his wife, it shows his state of mind, and that is key. If someone says blacks are all rapists and murderers and should be slaughtered like pigs, and then he is accused of killing a black, it is evidence he likely killed the person because they were black. It is all about motive, they are not prosecuted for their speech, their speech is evidence of their state of mind when they committed the crime

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:48:25 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Society shouldn't tolerate any of it. Especially if someone, whoever for whatever reason is hunted down and attacked, beaten or killed. Why is it so much worse one way or the other if a guy hunts down and beats up your straight brother or the guy hunts down and beats up your gay brother ?

The key is , when it comes to gay people, society often has tolerated it, same way with killing people because of their race or religion. Among other things, hate crimes often involve people for example who aren't gay being targeted, because someone thought they were gay, a hispanic man was killed when he was walking with his brother in law, was drunk and leaning on him, and a gang of black guys thought they were gay and killed the guy, they were charged with a hate crime. Several Sikhs were killed after 9/11, by morons who decided anyone wearing a turban was muslim, and they were given stiff hate crime penalties on top of the sentences, because they targeted someone they believed was muslim.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 9:56:43 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

That is a rather broad statement. Do you make it so that you can demonize any that oppose your view? I do not like the idea of hate crime laws and I don't fit your demon.

There are many examples of people just being pissed and using a derogatory that could be construed as something that supports hate crime, when in fact there wasn't any hate towards a group but just the one person they were pissed at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

The people opposed to hate crime legislation are generally ones who want to continue spreading hate of one group or another. So calling those people civilized is a bit of a stretch.



If someone is pissed at an individual and use racial slurs or whatever, it shows they have a bias against the group in the first place because otherwise why would they use the term if they were mad at an individual? If they called someone a damn fag because they are mad at them, it indicates they don't like gay people because they slurred the person with it, if they were pissed at them, they could call them scumbag, asshole, you name it.

Sorry, but that is a lame assed excuse "oh, he doesn't hate blacks, why, some of his best friends are black". if in the heat of the moment you are pissed at an individual and slur them because of who they are, it says you don't exactly feel all that great about the group in question, since in effect your are blaming their ethnicity or sexual orientation for them being a scummy person.

BTW, despite what the right wing claims, it is not easy to bring hate crimes charges, it takes a chain of evidence to prove these cases, cases that are dubious don't get brought up like that, even in NYC where you would figure it would be common. If a guy in the heat of the moment called someone a racial slur, and then later on let's say beat up someone of that group, it is unlikely it would hold weight, it would take a pattern of showing bias for someone to be charged. I have two ex NYC DA's in my family and know a couple of investigators for that same office, and I asked them about that, and they said that in practice it takes solid evidence to even bring someone up on those charges, DA's are careful with it, because otherwise the law would become a nuisance and would be counterproductive.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:01:21 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Not being a fan of the Breitbart site, I went and found the story at The Advocate.

http://www.advocate.com/print-issue/current-issue/2013/09/13/have-we-got-matthew-shepard-all-wrong


Thanks for the post, Aylee. I think the story raises some good questions about the creation of poster children, and the long-term credibility of those who create them.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:02:29 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it would be murder, just like anyone else getting shot and the additional laws are unneeded. Just uphold the laws already there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"

quote:

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?



Explain that to the family of a black kid killed down south when the perp is white person, and routinely receive lesser sentences then blacks accused of killing whites, or tell that to gays who when victimized often find local law enforcement could care less, or the perps get a slap on the wrist. In the Matthew Shepherd case the local law enforcement didn't exactly go out of their way to find the perps and the DA was going to plea bargain it until it became a media item of note and they realized they would end up looking like rednecks down south if they didn't try and prosecute it.

Read up sometime on the case that the movie "Boys don't cry is based on", again, the local cops laughed about the poor kid being murdered, the DA didn't want to prosecute the scum that did it, then tried to plea it down practically to a misdemeanor, before it hit the media and such and they couldn't make it go away.

With federal hate crimes laws, like with civil rights laws, it allows federal prosecutors and such to step in and prevent the ole boy network from making these kind of cases go away.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:12:36 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

The answer to your question is if the white guy kills the black guy they are likely to get a reduced sentence compared to let's say if a black person kills a white person. The answer to your question is if you kill someone for 50 bucks, you are motivated by something different than hate, whereas tracking someone down simply because they are different is a much more heinous crime. More importantly, the reason is to send a message to people you have the right to hate people, but if you act on it, the state will hit you hard, it is a deterrent. More importantly, it also stops judges from, for example, looking at the murder of a gay person or a trans person or a black killed by a white supremecists and saying in effect the victim deserved it.



So, what if the black guy is killed for the thrill of it because he's the first person to walk around the corner ? I'm guessing 25 to life and a possibility of parole might be ok as apposed to life without parole because the black guy was killed because of his race ? I don't see how a hate factor is going to affect a bias judge that much. He's just going to use some other reason or legal maneuver to affect the case in favor of the defendant. The same goes for a bias jury. I'm not sure how often this sort of thing goes on with judges and juries these days anyhow. There are some dumb ass judges though. There is a recent case of a judge who gave a guy 30 days for statutory rape of a girl who later killed herself over it. How do you fix that shit ?



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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:15:00 PM   
njlauren


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Status: offline 		There is something in the article that actually makes the case it was a hate crime. Henderson, one of the perps, spends all his time denying he is gay or bisexual, is adamant about that. It means either one of the two things, he is straight, but is so down on gays that anyone thinking he is gay makes him really upset; or he is gay or bisexual, but is self hating, and thus denies he is gay or bi strongly. The thing is, in either case, he could very well have beaten up shepherd because of his loathing of gays. Roy Cohn was rabidly anti gay, and was part of many efforts to persecute them, yet he was a raging queen quite literally, self hatred in someone can turn into rage against others who are like that. You combine the guy being strung out on meth, and being self hating, and he very well could have killed shepherd because he was gay. Even if henderson is gay or bi, he obviously loathes homosexuality, and if he killed shepherd because he slept with him and felt disgust, it is still a hate crime, because what led him to do it was his hatred of homosexuality.

BTW the book sounds like a lot of the evidence is anecdotal, and in a court of law would make for a weak case. I am sure it could be a lot more complex then a gay kid killed by two homophobic rednecks, but the reality is a self hating gay person is often quite likely to lash out at gays, and is also not unlikely to hurt or kill someone who is gay because they hate it so much..and it would be a bias crime, if they did so. The other thing I seem to recall is that Shepherd's murderers weren't accused of a hate crime,the state didn't have hate crime statutes, they were prosecuted for murder, which obviously they committed.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:28:54 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
It isn't a free speech thing



Please don't post such pablum at me. Hate crime legislation is not about establishing motive, it is about penalty enhancement for holding certain views. Peddle your dream-otheticals elsewhere.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:29:27 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.

I know of nowhere that a hate crime can be based solely on what the criminal thinks about someone. Hate crimes require some overt statement during the crime or evidence that the victim was targeted simply because of his status.



Yep. The term "hate crime" can make people think - "oh, it's just when a criminal hates the person, how can we judge that?", like Phydeaux here. But that's a total misunderstanding.

Hate crimes aren't about private feelings of one criminal. Hate crimes are when that criminal commits a crime in order to terrify and control a group of people. For example, when someone burns a cross on the yard of a black family, that person isn't just committing arson - they're trying to scare that family and probably other black families. Hate crimes aren't "thought crimes" - they're basically a form of terrorism.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:32:56 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't have a problem with calling hate crimes hate crimes for the purpose of compiling statistics or for a prosecutor to show motive and such. But to legislate into effect enhanced penalties for these types of crimes is absurd. What's the difference if a white guy kills a black guy in the heat of the moment because he hates black guys or he kills a black guy for the $50 in his wallet ? Same thing with the idiot who shot that young black boy in Texas. If its proven that he did it, why would we want to make his punishment less severe if his motive was anything other than hate for blacks ? Hang the fucker by his ball regardless of his motive.

What about the numerous gay bashings over the last decades. Should those bigots get a normal sentence for felony assault and battery for hunting down and attacking gay men? Or might it be wise to enhance their sentence to show society will not tolerate such hate crimes?


Yes they should get a normal sentence.

Felony assault and battery is breaking the social contract. An individual has "attacked" society. That is what a crime is after all. The reasons why do not matter. This infraction of the social contract carries this penalty.

Hate crimes are a bias motivated crime. This means that the reasons why DO matter. Felony assault and battery does not become better or worse because of how a perpetrator FEELS about his victim.

After all, what is the crime? Beating someone half to death (violation of the social contract) or thinking that this race/sex/religion/whatever are scum suckers who SHOULD be beaten half to death (which may be assoholic, but does NOT violate the social contract)?

Let's examine 3 scenarios
1) A simple bar fight with some kind of significant injury. Can be charged as a felony. I think most people would agree this is the baseline for the punishment of said crime

2) A "collection agent" for a bookie or a loan shark hunts a guy down and breaks his arm. Felony assault and battery is just the beginning of the crimes that can be charged in this incident. Society has decided that this sort of thing is more unacceptable than scenario 1.

3) A gay bashing where the bashers hunted for a gay person to attack with no hate crime law. This would be treated as the same as scenario 1 while I think most people would agree it is at least as serious as scenario 2 which is why hate crime laws do make sense in at least some situations.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/15/2013 10:36:58 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

That is a rather broad statement. Do you make it so that you can demonize any that oppose your view? I do not like the idea of hate crime laws and I don't fit your demon.

There are many examples of people just being pissed and using a derogatory that could be construed as something that supports hate crime, when in fact there wasn't any hate towards a group but just the one person they were pissed at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
How any civilised people can call hate crime laws an abomination, obviously havent been affected by them.

The people opposed to hate crime legislation are generally ones who want to continue spreading hate of one group or another. So calling those people civilized is a bit of a stretch.



Look up the bolded word in a dictionary.

Also if you have no animus towards some group why would you use an epithet against that group while angry? As to whether that would get you charged with a hate crime would depend on the circumstances. If it was a single utterance in the heat of a conflict I really doubt a prosecutor would bring the charge or that a jury would convict based solely on that.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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