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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 7:10:58 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If he kills the black guy in such a way as to send a message of terror to the black community, like the KKK used to do by lynching, then it's very different from some mugging gone wrong. In the mugging gone wrong, the victim is that one dead guy. In a lynching, the victim is every black person in the community.

That's how I see it.

When I was gay-bashed some years ago, knowing that I'd been attacked for who I am added a whole layer of pain to the physical wounds.

Matthew Shepard's death left me and countless others thinking, "That could have been me." I realize the Jimenez book may undercut the accuracy of the reaction, but that's how we felt at the time. I'll be interested to see what Jimenez makes of the killers' taking the trouble to tie Shepard, scarecrow style, to a fence and leave him there for all the world to see.


So, No 3 of those below, then.

"Hate crimes can have significant and wide-ranging psychological consequences, not only upon the direct victim but on others as well. A manual issued by the Attorney-General of the Province of Ontario in Canada lists the following consequences:[13]

effects on people – psychological and affective disturbances; repercussion on the victim's identity and self-esteem; both reinforced by the degree of violence of a hate crime, usually stronger than that of a common one.

effect on the targeted group – generalized terror in the group to which the victim belongs, inspiring feelings of vulnerability over the other members, who could be the next victims.

effect on other vulnerable groups – ominous effects over minority groups or over groups that identify themselves with the targeted one, especially when the referred hate is based on an ideology or doctrine that preaches simultaneously against several groups.

Being the victim of a hate crime can also cause depression.[14]

[From Wikipedia, my bolds]"

The problem is, DCN, my sense is that it's very, very difficult to convey what it feels like to have those feelings that members already-vulnerable groups get when one of their number has some hate-crime perpetrated on them. But that's me getting into teaching-granny-to-suck-eggs territory.



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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:00:34 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Shows your fucking ignorance in your post. You do not know me, my bi-racial son, where I was raised, who raised me or anything else. Comments like below could very well be a form of dumbassery.

If you are ignorant of someone, try not making foolish comments about them.

So is it a hate crime if I punch someone in the mouth when they say something retarded, and then actually call them a retard when I do it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it would be murder, just like anyone else getting shot and the additional laws are unneeded. Just uphold the laws already there.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"





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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:12:56 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Shows your fucking ignorance in your post.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"

quote:

You do not know me, my bi-racial son, where I was raised, who raised me or anything else. Comments like below could very well be a form of dumbassery.

Who you claim to be and what you claim your son to be is hardly relevant.
The only thing I see as "dumbassery" is the personal attack in this post.



quote:

If you are ignorant of someone, try not making foolish comments about them.


I post in response to what is posted.

quote:

So is it a hate crime if I punch someone in the mouth when they say something retarded, and then actually call them a retard when I do it?

No! that would be a childish display of ones inability to communicate effectively. Putting ones hands on another is prima facia evidence that the attacker is not smart enough to talk to the attacked.
If the attacked were armed the attacker would be one dead punk ass motherfucker.
If you cannot disagree without being disagreeable perhaps the block function would be useful.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:14:03 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You bet you ass it is a penality enhancement for holding certian views...Those views being in direct opposition to the constitution of my country.

I thought you lived in the U.S. I'm an American. In the Constitution of my country, people can hold views that differ from those embodied therein, and it's protected speech to express them. It's even legal to amend the Constitution, which, in fact, has been done a number of times. We don't recognize "thought crimes" here, let alone punish people for them. Where do you live?

K.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:25:40 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You bet you ass it is a penality enhancement for holding certian views...Those views being in direct opposition to the constitution of my country.

I thought you lived in the U.S. I'm an American. In the Constitution of my country, people can hold views that differ from those embodied therein, and it's protected speech to express them.



Is it protected speech to advocate the violent overthrow of the u.s. govt?

quote:

It's even legal to amend the Constitution, which, in fact, has been done a number of times. We don't recognize "thought crimes" here, let alone punish people for them. Where do you live?

K.


My point was that we do not punish thought crimes in the u.s. We punish hate crimes. Hate and thought are two different words and are not synonyms.
The constitution gurantees a republican form of govt. and to seek to change that is a crime.
One of the changes to the constitution, you mention ,has to do with the equality of citizens in this country and behavior that is contrary to that concept are against the law.The fools who like to conflate "thougt crime" ,a concept from the novel 1984, and hate crime would first and formost have a english language comprehension probem. The two concepts are alike only in the minds of morons...no one has ever been charged with a thought crime because there are no laws against what one thinks, only what they do. If one encites a riot with hate speech that person is guilty of inciting a riot and of using hate speech to do so...not unlike there is an enhancement if a gun is used in the commission of a crime.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/16/2013 10:28:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:44:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

My point was that we do not punish thought crimes in the u.s. We punish hate crimes. Hate and thought are two different words and are not synonyms.

Given that a person commits a crime, how is punishing him for having proscribed thoughts when he committed it not punishing him for a thought crime in addition to the original offense?

K.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 10:56:13 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.



Hate speech is free speech that other people hate. If the only speech that is free is what everybody likes, it isn't very free at all, is it?




Bullshit....... hate speech isnt free speech at all..... Its incitement.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 11:47:17 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.



Hate speech is free speech that other people hate. If the only speech that is free is what everybody likes, it isn't very free at all, is it?




Bullshit....... hate speech isnt free speech at all..... Its incitement.



If hate speach was used to incite a riot or others to commit a violent crime it would be incitement. Otherwise I'm still not seeing the logic.

_____________________________

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"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 11:51:00 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.


Anything you say, I guarantee you that somebody out there considers it hate speech. Without hate speech there is no free speech. The proper counter to hate speech is to exercise your own freedom of speech.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 11:57:00 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		You even quoted the relevant post by Rich.

"Hate speech is free speech that other people hate."

Hate speech gives others a reason for what they do. Its seen as okay to hate others because the web sites these people read, or people they listen to, say its okay. It creates the illusion those who are somehow different are a legitimate target for violence.

Its an excuse that dickheads Tommy Robinson of the EDL goes about spouting. Its also contained in anti Western rhetoric by Al Zawahiri of AQ.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:01:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.


Anything you say, I guarantee you that somebody out there considers it hate speech. Without hate speech there is no free speech. The proper counter to hate speech is to exercise your own freedom of speech.


Bullshit, for all the reasons I have given. Most of you complaining about UK hate speech laws dont even have a clue what they are.

Whats laughable is that you dont even have free speech in the US. You wouldnt get away with shouting out you were going to set off a bomb and kill gays, or shoot the President, or kill a cop. So whatever else, you are not free to say exactly whatever you want.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:07:36 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

My point was that we do not punish thought crimes in the u.s. We punish hate crimes. Hate and thought are two different words and are not synonyms.

Given that a person commits a crime, how is punishing him for having proscribed thoughts when he committed it not punishing him for a thought crime in addition to the original offense?


He is not being punished for his thoughts he is being punished for a hate crime not a thought crime...hate and thought are not synonyms and to contend that they are is disingenuous.
Some one murders your neighbor not because they wanted to rob him but because he believed in owning a gun. The person who murdered him wants to kill all people who own guns. Are you part of the class this person has decided to murder. Typical murderer gets about 8 years.The hate crime enhancement could double that or more...that much more time you don't have to look over your shoulder for that particular asshole.
How can you not be aware of the reasons for having hate crime legislation. How can you not be aware that many times blacks were lynched and the only crime charged was assembly without a parade permit.
To my knowledge no one has been tried or convicted of a "thought crime"in the u.s.. Do you have the same qualms about thugs being tried for "cvil rights violations" in addition to the murder?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/16/2013 12:14:03 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:09:09 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Bullshit, for all the reasons I have given. Most of you complaining about UK hate speech laws dont even have a clue what they are.


Where have I been complaining about UK hate speech laws?

quote:

Whats laughable is that you dont even have free speech in the US. You wouldnt get away with shouting out you were going to set off a bomb and kill gays, or shoot the President, or kill a cop. So whatever else, you are not free to say exactly whatever you want.


You are extrapolating to absurd ends and then criticizing the end result. This in no way invalidates my position or validates yours.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:12:03 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.



Hate speech is free speech that other people hate. If the only speech that is free is what everybody likes, it isn't very free at all, is it?




Bullshit....... hate speech isnt free speech at all..... Its incitement.



If hate speach was used to incite a riot or others to commit a violent crime it would be incitement. Otherwise I'm still not seeing the logic.

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:13:55 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Hate speech isnt free speech, its hate speech. The quicker people understand that, the better.


Anything you say, I guarantee you that somebody out there considers it hate speech. Without hate speech there is no free speech. The proper counter to hate speech is to exercise your own freedom of speech.


We do not have "free speech" in the u.s. the scotus has outlined the things one may not say. Inciting a riot or inciting murder is against the law...the fact that you do not like it is not my problem.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:15:16 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

My point was that we do not punish thought crimes in the u.s. We punish hate crimes. Hate and thought are two different words and are not synonyms.

Given that a person commits a crime, how is punishing him for having proscribed thoughts when he committed it not punishing him for a thought crime in addition to the original offense?

He is not being punished for his thoughts he is being punished for a hate crime not a thought crime...hate and thought are not synonyms and to contend that they are is didingenuous.

If you're just going to repeat the contention I'm questioning, we're in a loop.

K.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:15:17 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Where have I been complaining about UK hate speech laws?


I didnt say you, i clearly said "most" of you

quote:


You are extrapolating to absurd ends and then criticizing the end result. This in no way invalidates my position or validates yours.


Tell that to those killed by the London nail bomber (Copeland ?) he had been doing those same things you call absurd, and the result was several people were murdered, he was under the impression that gays and blacks were legitimate targets.

Fuck all absurd about that, is there !

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:16:52 PM   
lovmuffin


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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You even quoted the relevant post by Rich.

"Hate speech is free speech that other people hate."

Hate speech gives others a reason for what they do. Its seen as okay to hate others because the web sites these people read, or people they listen to, say its okay. It creates the illusion those who are somehow different are a legitimate target for violence.

Its an excuse that dickheads Tommy Robinson of the EDL goes about spouting. Its also contained in anti Western rhetoric by Al Zawahiri of AQ.


Other than to show motive or compile statistics or studies who cares why someone does the crime. The penalty should be the same if you beat someone to death for hate or for the $50 in there wallet.

See what you've done ? I'm repeating myself



_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:27:38 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.


Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic. You can go in pursuit of The Case Of Tom Metzger Sherlock.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:34:29 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Other than to show motive or compile statistics or studies who cares why someone does the crime. The penalty should be the same if you beat someone to death for hate or for the $50 in there wallet.

See what you've done ? I'm repeating myself


You are baffling me, and not in a good way. Hate is hate is hate, and needs to be stamped out.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 80
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