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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:34:31 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I didnt say you, i clearly said "most" of you


So I shouldn't include myself in a "most" directed at me? Never mind. This is an irrelevancy anyway.

quote:

Tell that to those killed by the London nail bomber (Copeland ?) he had been doing those same things you call absurd, and the result was several people were murdered, he was under the impression that gays and blacks were legitimate targets.

Fuck all absurd about that, is there !


You misunderstood me. What I am calling absurd is the notion that free speech would include the things you listed, namely making direct threats. It was you who declared such nonsense to be under my notion of free speech even though I had said nothing of the sort. However, many hate crime laws do not deal only with direct threats but as speech which is considered insulting or degrading to a particular group. Nobody hates bullying more than me but such definitions are too broad and can be easily used for political suppression.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:35:22 PM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

hate crime legislation is an abomination.

The jury has a hard enough time deciding a crime based on actions - and now they're supposed to ferret out 'thought crimes'.


Fully agree! Murder is murder... crime is crime and both should be judged accordingly.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:36:41 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Nobody hates bullying more than me but such definitions are too broad and can be easily used for political suppression.

Thats nonsense, at least under UK law. Hate speech laws are very specific.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:37:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic.

Yeah really. I wouldn't even know how to "puruse" something.

K.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 12:59:21 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Thats nonsense, at least under UK law. Hate speech laws are very specific.


So I can travel to the UK and proclaim that "Anglicans are fucktards!"?


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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 1:09:37 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

what the fuck is a "thought crime"?


There's also something in the US called the 'Sexual Left', according to Aylee's link. What's that? Do you need a hammer and sickle tattooed on your whanger to get involved? Why haven't we got a Sexual Left in the UK? I want one.

Hell, I'll take a sexual left, right and middle. It's fun and a pleasure to turn moderate sexual centrists into, well.....

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 1:21:41 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Other than to show motive or compile statistics or studies who cares why someone does the crime. The penalty should be the same if you beat someone to death for hate or for the $50 in there wallet.

See what you've done ? I'm repeating myself


You are baffling me, and not in a good way. Hate is hate is hate, and needs to be stamped out.



I agree completely with that sentiment though I don't know how I baffled you. It's just that what has been stated here by you I think and others is for equally violent crimes, the ones with hate components should be penalized more severely. I'm not talking about crimes that include terror or inciting a riot and such. But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim because he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.


< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 9/16/2013 1:26:01 PM >

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 1:25:43 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim becomes he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.



Obviously, to some people, there are people that are more deserving of life than others.

If someone kills a black person or a lesbian or an illegal immigrant, that's a travesty but, if someone kills an old white guy, it should be frowned upon.

That sounds like the argument for affirmative action, actually.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 2:11:04 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To disabuse yourself of your stated ignorance perhaps you might puruse the case of tom metzger.

Maybe you could disabuse yourself of saying "disabuse" and explain where I went wrong with my logic.

Yeah really. I wouldn't even know how to "puruse" something.

K.


It's easy. Just grab a big ole magnifying glass, put on you Sherlock hat and take off fast. At that point you're in puruse. LMAO


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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 2:15:55 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim becomes he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.



Obviously, to some people, there are people that are more deserving of life than others.

If someone kills a black person or a lesbian or an illegal immigrant, that's a travesty but, if someone kills an old white guy, it should be frowned upon.

That sounds like the argument for affirmative action, actually.


Really now, I don't think anyone has gone quite that far. So give it a few more minutes why dontcha.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 2:20:11 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Shows your fucking ignorance in your post.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"


As much dumbassery post as the first time.

quote:


quote:

You do not know me, my bi-racial son, where I was raised, who raised me or anything else. Comments like below could very well be a form of dumbassery.

Who you claim to be and what you claim your son to be is hardly relevant.
The only thing I see as "dumbassery" is the personal attack in this post.

The attack was on the comments, not on you. I don't know you, I only know your posts and the ignorance of some of those comments.

quote:

If you are ignorant of someone, try not making foolish comments about them.


I post in response to what is posted.



Then you use telepathy to determine other peoples intent and motive? You plainly state what you are sure they are. If you don't have telepathy then the post is just so much dumbassery.

quote:


quote:

So is it a hate crime if I punch someone in the mouth when they say something retarded, and then actually call them a retard when I do it?

No! that would be a childish display of ones inability to communicate effectively. Putting ones hands on another is prima facia evidence that the attacker is not smart enough to talk to the attacked.
If the attacked were armed the attacker would be one dead punk ass motherfucker.
If you cannot disagree without being disagreeable perhaps the block function would be useful.


So it wouldn't matter what they said, just that they did the action? That is what I am reading above. Then we agree that it is the action that is the issue and not what they say or think.

Don't need to use the block feature when you give a good example of what I have been saying. I appreciate the support. :)

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 3:38:42 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

So I can travel to the UK and proclaim that "Anglicans are fucktards!"?



You probably could, yes. Anglicans aren't currently subject to major hate feelings and don't suffer from them. They get by in wider society. Gays and lesbians, though, that's a different story. They can and do still feel beaten down, trashed as scum and generally bullied. DCNovice's post, above, explains - though, as I think many will agree, it's very, very difficult to relate to such feelings if you've not been an enforced, life-time member of the vulnerable group in question.

For me, there's kind of an 'elephant in the room' with this discussion. This is that nearly all western governments, including the right wing ones, have passed anti-hate-crime laws. I think it pretty implausible that all these governments have passed them as a result of pressure from lefty-liberals and that we're looking at yet another manifestation of good old 'political correctness' and on an international scale, to boot. So . . . why these laws, then?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/16/2013 3:42:00 PM >

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:38:06 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it would be murder, just like anyone else getting shot and the additional laws are unneeded. Just uphold the laws already there.


Only to those who long for the good ol days when one could shoot a black man in the back and be charged with "discharging a firearm with in the city limit"




Translation: You disagree with me so you must be a racist.


Isn't that one getting a bit old yet


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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:38:07 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Thats nonsense, at least under UK law. Hate speech laws are very specific.


So I can travel to the UK and proclaim that "Anglicans are fucktards!"?



Yes, indeed you can, an insult isnt hate speech. Just call me if you need extra help understanding the difference between the two.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:42:11 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I agree completely with that sentiment though I don't know how I baffled you. It's just that what has been stated here by you I think and others is for equally violent crimes, the ones with hate components should be penalized more severely. I'm not talking about crimes that include terror or inciting a riot and such. But I'm saying that if someone murders my sister to get her purse or someone else murders a black guy on a whim because he hates black guys, neither of them should ever be allowed in polite society ever again. To assign a lesser penalty to one or the other or to say one crime is worse than the other defies logic.




What baffles me is people refuse to see what goes on around them on a daily basis.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:46:17 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The problem is, DCN, my sense is that it's very, very difficult to convey what it feels like to have those feelings that members already-vulnerable groups get when one of their number has some hate-crime perpetrated on them.

Too true.

It hasn't escaped my notice that most of the posts in this thread appear to come from straight white men.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:52:01 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The problem is, DCN, my sense is that it's very, very difficult to convey what it feels like to have those feelings that members already-vulnerable groups get when one of their number has some hate-crime perpetrated on them.

Too true.

It hasn't escaped my notice that most of the posts in this thread appear to come from straight white men.


As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

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RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 4:57:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

As a lesbian I would just like to say if I get beaten to death one night I am probably not going to care why they are doing it. I will just wish that hadn't. I also wouldn't like to think that their sentence will be dependent on the motive. Lock the fuckers up and don't let them hurt anyone else.

As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 5:00:12 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Boi.... You are right, if you were a victim it probably wouldnt make much difference what the motive was. The point about hate crime laws though is this. Its to make it safe for anyone, whatever their race religion or sexuality, not to live in fear.

Look at it another way. Sadly it pertains to life in many towns and cities these days.

If you go out, you have a chance of being robbed.
If you are gay, you have the added chance of being beaten for that.
I strongly believe we should all stand up against hate crimes, from whatever direction they come. If that means making them illegal acts, so be it.


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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: MATTHEW SHEPARD TORTURED, MURDERED BY GAY LOVER - 9/16/2013 5:01:46 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
As you wish.

I'd prefer not to have the horror of my death compounded by the murder's striking fear into the hearts of countless other LGBT folk.


Bingo..... as has already been said, hate crimes are carried out to strike fear in whole communities.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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