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RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/2/2013 3:48:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Isabella put him on a salary and the dole for two years before financing him.
And it was a national government since she married Ferdinand and they united it, each ruling over their half, but in concert.



No, it was a sovereign government, but hardly national.


How do you figure that. She and Ferdinand had just led a military campaign ejecting the last Moorish rulers and uniting their 3 kingdoms.


I'd think that's obvious. I find it difficult to equate a Kingdom to a national government.


There were functionaries at various levels and many state functions took place, national defense, taxation, regulation of commerce, standards of weights and measures etc.

It was quite clearly a nation, 3 actually until her grandson united Spain.

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RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/2/2013 6:10:32 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I find it difficult to equate a Kingdom to a national government.

Why?

"L'etat, c'est moi," after all.

Whatever one's quibbles about kingdoms vs. nations, the key point of my example was that it took the public sector, not the private, to launch Columbus, Magellan, et al.


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RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 1:03:37 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 1:52:45 AM   
joether


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.... (free to delete this post)

< Message edited by joether -- 10/3/2013 1:53:59 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 4:08:29 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?

Oh Im sorry.....having seen what "my" governments have run and what the clusterfuck of privatisation has led to, hell yes.
You were given a whack of depts that run better by gov....yet you jump on mine because I didnt name one.
WHile these days social media can upset a company/corp , trying to get thru their morass of lawyers to complain about anything is futile.
Government regulations over banks here helped canada escape most of the banking/mortgage/clusterfuck that struck the US and the UK
I dislike my government too for many reasons, but yeah, they run healthcare better than insurance companies obviously do in the US.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 4:42:15 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?


I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us. With the private sector, we don't really have that option.

And as far as treatment of their workers is concerned, the main reason why the private sector can boast that it can do things more cheaply is because they pay their employees less and give fewer benefits than their counterparts would receive as government employees. But cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better.

I would agree that there are things that the government could do better. It's not that they can't do it, but it's because they won't do it. I also agree that there's a lot of inefficiency and waste which could be addressed if ever the people felt strongly enough to demand it (instead of sniping at each other over which brand of wasteful inefficiency they prefer). But I see that more as an argument for changing and reforming government, not for handing everything over to the private sector.

Besides, the only reason government exists in the first place is because the private sector got together and created it. They squabble too much and can't settle disputes on their own, so they need some kind of "referee." Too many mini fiefdoms in the private sector that can't really stand up to the powerful coalitions led by national governments. The private sector as we know it today grew and thrived under our own national government, so they're essentially part of the same coalition. The private sector has learned very well how to use government for its own ends.

I would also point out that the government itself is not necessarily "greedy." If it were, our treasury would be overflowing with gold and our government would be generating huge profits, not an ever-increasing debt. If the money isn't in the public sector anymore, it must have gone to the private sector.

That's the problem with the whole idea of "private sector vs. federal government," since they work in concert with each other.

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 5:24:34 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?

Oh Im sorry.....having seen what "my" governments have run and what the clusterfuck of privatisation has led to, hell yes.
You were given a whack of depts that run better by gov....yet you jump on mine because I didnt name one.
WHile these days social media can upset a company/corp , trying to get thru their morass of lawyers to complain about anything is futile.
Government regulations over banks here helped canada escape most of the banking/mortgage/clusterfuck that struck the US and the UK
I dislike my government too for many reasons, but yeah, they run healthcare better than insurance companies obviously do in the US.


Lucy,

First, Im sorry if you feel I "jumped" on your post. Haven't had time to read through entire thread, no dount Ill "jump" on someone's, too. ;)

I wish youd have originally posted the above, because its far more informative as to your position and why you feel that way.

Here, we are departments upon departments...departments for departments and its reached such a level that it costs our country over $3,000,000,000,000 a year, with what 1/3 of that is at a deficit. its ridiculous and in all those zeros theres corruption and greed in droves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 5:35:54 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us.

Two points:

A) I sort of see it in a checks and balances sort of way. That's why corporatism has turned out so badly.
B) At least with a government there is the theory that it exists to serve. With a corporation there is only profit motive.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 5:42:02 AM   
Lucylastic


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Actually, I have to apologise to you... I forgot that you havent been around for long and dont know my "background", most of the regs posting know that Im a brit who transplanted to Canada:)
so to many Im a peasant serf closet commie who hugs trees.
oh and an interfering busy body who dares to comment on the machinations of the US:)
corruption, greed and selfishness is not a US only issue, theres just more people (population size)


_____________________________

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 5:50:20 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?


I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us. With the private sector, we don't really have that option.

And as far as treatment of their workers is concerned, the main reason why the private sector can boast that it can do things more cheaply is because they pay their employees less and give fewer benefits than their counterparts would receive as government employees. But cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better.

I would agree that there are things that the government could do better. It's not that they can't do it, but it's because they won't do it. I also agree that there's a lot of inefficiency and waste which could be addressed if ever the people felt strongly enough to demand it (instead of sniping at each other over which brand of wasteful inefficiency they prefer). But I see that more as an argument for changing and reforming government, not for handing everything over to the private sector.

Besides, the only reason government exists in the first place is because the private sector got together and created it. They squabble too much and can't settle disputes on their own, so they need some kind of "referee." Too many mini fiefdoms in the private sector that can't really stand up to the powerful coalitions led by national governments. The private sector as we know it today grew and thrived under our own national government, so they're essentially part of the same coalition. The private sector has learned very well how to use government for its own ends.

I would also point out that the government itself is not necessarily "greedy." If it were, our treasury would be overflowing with gold and our government would be generating huge profits, not an ever-increasing debt. If the money isn't in the public sector anymore, it must have gone to the private sector.

That's the problem with the whole idea of "private sector vs. federal government," since they work in concert with each other.


I disagree a bit... government isnt about party, its about power and control. Its the government party! The notion we get to elect someone ever 2 ,4 and 6 years, even if they provide shitty service, were stuck with them and their agenda.

By all means you have control when it comes to the private sector. If you like said company, business or program you're going to be a patron of theirs... if you don't care for them you go elsewhere.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 5:59:43 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Actually, I have to apologise to you... I forgot that you havent been around for long and dont know my "background", most of the regs posting know that Im a brit who transplanted to Canada:)
so to many Im a peasant serf closet commie who hugs trees.
oh and an interfering busy body who dares to comment on the machinations of the US:)
corruption, greed and selfishness is not a US only issue, theres just more people (population size)


Well hello there... thats one sexy description, minus the commie. Haha... thanks Lucy! Its funny all the years we've been members here, I just recently spotted this forum! Lucky you!!

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 6:08:19 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course the Private Sector is so much more reliable, less greedy, and less corrupt than the government, less likely to fuck over their workers, be honest and open and safe.
Falling over laughing.


What I asked was name 1 program the government can run better. Our government is already greedy, corrupt, dishonest... so you just have a predisposition of being screwed by one rather than another?


That's a nonsense comparing the two things, governament role is to ensure basic services at an affordable price to all populatin, private corporations role is to create profit, and I'm not telling it in a negative way, this just means that private companies must differentiate their product to add value or their job is useless, if they can compete on the price it will be the governament to ousource in the best interest of population, just guessing what would be better is nothing different than betting on horse races.
Also as someone said there are sectors that must be exclusive to the governament or will you think having private armies in your territory or judges that are paid by an employer that can fire them at any time would be a good idea?

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 6:21:57 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I find it difficult to equate a Kingdom to a national government.

Why?

"L'etat, c'est moi," after all.








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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 6:39:17 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound
I disagree a bit... government isnt about party, its about power and control. Its the government party! The notion we get to elect someone ever 2 ,4 and 6 years, even if they provide shitty service, were stuck with them and their agenda.


I don't think that's strictly true. There is no "government party," and the individual politicians and bureaucrats are mainly out for themselves, not for the good of the government as a whole.

quote:


By all means you have control when it comes to the private sector. If you like said company, business or program you're going to be a patron of theirs... if you don't care for them you go elsewhere.


Of course, the same can be said about governments. If you don't like your current government, you can always move to another country with another government. Even the private sector has done that by moving jobs overseas and money to offshore accounts. Also, a lot of the private sector's money goes to fund the campaigns of these people we elect for 2, 4, or 6 years, so it's clear that the private sector ostensibly approves of those running the government and our satisfied with the shitty service they provide. The private sector also spends big bucks on hiring lobbyists to wine and dine politicians to ensure that our government will continue to provide shitty service that the public will be stuck with for much longer than 2, 4, or 6 years.

And if the public wasn't so gullible as to allow their voting choices to be determined by TV commercials, the government might actually someday provide better service.

And it's not exactly like there's a wall of separation between the private sector and the government. Many times, it's the same people wearing different hats. People are wary of religious clerics who run for public office, but we have no problem with businessmen running for public office.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 7:41:00 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

There would be more judge judy. Which of course is another example.



Interesting point as to Judge Judy. Agreement as to forum, therefore binding. I have never seen her act in anything but equity mode though.

You should do stand up comedy. That was hilarious.


One does not go to the courts, or the forums, private or public sector to get inequity. So, it is hardly surprising that should be the case.


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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 9:39:26 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I find it difficult to equate a Kingdom to a national government.

Why?

"L'etat, c'est moi," after all.






It's always nice to be able to bring someone a smile, but I'm still curious about why you don't consider kingdoms to be national governments.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 9:43:38 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us. With the private sector, we don't really have that option.


How funny.

Last I checked companies don't have the ability to force you to buy their goods and services.

As opposed to the government. This is why the founding fathers considered government a necessary evil.

And this is why so much of this government "shutdown" is pure bloviation.
How much of what has been shut down is really "necessary".

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 9:58:20 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

1) Military
2) Funding of basic research
3) Courts
4) Border Security
5) Food and drug purity and safety inspections
6) Environmental protection
7) Parks
8) Enforcing safety regulations on the private sector
and so on

Learn some history. We went through a period where government did almost nothing and it was a miserable failure. Children worked in coal mines, Union organizers were simply murdered, the company town system kept people as effective serfs owned by big business, factory work was extremely dangerous and maimed workers were just fired or allowed to die, rivers caught on fire (yes you read that right) etc.



Military, agreed.
Funny how even the most extreme right always make an exception for the military. And yet private enterprise rent-a-grunts are doing so much wonderful business in Iraq and such...
quote:


Courts. Nope. They could be private courts in many instances. This is a small one.
8-0 You are joking, aren't you?

Or do you just assume you'll always have enough money to buy the justice you like? God help you if you annoy someone rich.
quote:

It's also quite evident the courts have engaged in social engineering via judicial activism.
Mostly in cases where the law was left vague by careless or hasty legislators, who then whined when it wasn't interpreted the way they'd intended. The cure for that is better legislation that doesn't leave the interpretation up to the courts.
quote:


FDA inspections. If the courts worked right and the actual risks of business were in force, business wouldn't need so much inspection as they'd hold to a higher standard out of self preservation.
If the courts worked right. But since they'd be private courts, businesses would make sure they got the best ruling money could buy.
quote:



Parks. What?
Yanno, green places that don't pay for themselves by selling tickets?


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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 10:03:23 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us. With the private sector, we don't really have that option.


How funny.

Last I checked companies don't have the ability to force you to buy their goods and services.
But they do have the ability, in far too many areas, to drive out competition and fix prices and standards so you either buy their product or service or do without. Unless the government enforces anti-trust and anti-price-fixing laws ... which are some of the reasons rich folks tell you government is making business impossible.

Funny thing is, the countries with the most government regulation, taxation and state-funded welfare also have a lot of the world's most successful and innovative businesses.

_____________________________

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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Private Sector vs Federal Government - 10/3/2013 7:27:25 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I suppose if we're going to get screwed either way, at least with government, we get to choose and elect the ones who screw us. With the private sector, we don't really have that option.


How funny.

Last I checked companies don't have the ability to force you to buy their goods and services.



Likewise, no one is actually forced to remain in this country and live under this government. Americans have every right to give up their citizenship and move somewhere else.

But some companies, such as La Cosa Nostra, definitely had the ability to exert force to achieve their ends, so it's not as if the private sector is completely innocent.

quote:


As opposed to the government. This is why the founding fathers considered government a necessary evil.


I agree that it's a necessary evil, just as the founding fathers set up the checks and balances system because they knew that no single person could be trusted with all the power.

quote:


And this is why so much of this government "shutdown" is pure bloviation.
How much of what has been shut down is really "necessary".


Hard to say. A few days of shutdown will probably be no big deal in the long run. If it goes on for an extended period of time, that may be different. But it might be just as well. A few months without government services, the people will start rioting and looting, and then the private sector will then learn about the kinds of things they need government for.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 100
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