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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 7:22:17 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

..... I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. ....

And this is why I don't see actions of leadership as being a Dominant. Though being a Dominant often equates to being a leader.

Leadership can be externally driven or internally driven. Situational leadership is because the external situation demands it and sometimes very submissive persons are thrust into the roll for a lot of different reasons. Maybe knowledge and skill for the task at hand. Maybe voluntold. Lol. My girls can be very capable leaders in the right circumstances that demand it of them. But I find S types tend to find this a more stressful situation than a d type would. It sort of like the extrovert is gratified and fulfilled being in that crowded room and even energized while the introvert is drained because of it.

Internal driven leadership is D types. Besides the fun of leading a crowd and the results achieved. Their is an internal energy that a d type gains. Being in The roll of leadership feeds and empowers the d type. They not only tend to gravitate to these roles but seek them out. S types seldom seek the role out and are most often mentally drained from the efforts needed.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 21

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 7:55:31 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Way back in the day, before the internet made what we do mainstream, experiencing the submissive side was considered an important step to becoming a master. To the point that those who called themselves master and hadn't experienced being sub were considered posers.

I'm thinking this was a leather thing, but I'm not sure on that as my intro occurred not through the leather culture but through the gay culture in NO (French Quarter). Back in the early seventies the FQ had a major gay, orgy and S&M scene going, and it's a small enough place it was all the same scene.

So my exposure was primarily to those I would consider kinksters as opposed to leather people. But there were leather people on the fringes and they held the holy grail as far as S&M went. At that time it was a super secretive lifestyle, and since I was one of the kinksters, I wasn't a part of their culture.

I thought they were far too formal to be of interest to me.

So perhaps someone else can chime on if this was a leather thing.

In any case, I think serving as a submissive is an important step for anyone wishing to be a master or mistress. To me those titles imply a level of competence far beyond the average dominant.

The rationale was not that a dominant should learn to enjoy being a sub, but that he/she should have enough humility and desire to learn that they would be willing to subject themselves to another's dominance.

There used to be someone who posted here, I think her nick was Cala, who had an old style 'house' that incorporated this type of training for those wishing to be a master/mistress. She hasn't posted here in a few years, and that was the last I've heard of this type of training requirement. But my understanding is that it did used to be very common.

Back in the day, it was a leather thing. However, the other part that isn't in here is that it was also about the "fresh meat" factor and had an element to it about guaranteeing new tail. It didn't only happen in gay circles, either. It's a bit before My time, but some straight women coming in were also in the same position. Very much before My time.

By the way, if we are thinking of the same poster, her name here was CallaFirestorm.

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(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 22

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 8:18:00 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
You know... I am often in charge. In my job I certainly am. I dominate the room. That's my role. But do I *feel* what a leader feels? No. I don't enjoy being in charge. I prefer it to chaos though.

There's a part of me that wants to say, "If you enjoy being in charge you're doing it wrong." I find myself in charge quite frequently in my life and seldom would I class it as "enjoyable". I generally see it as "necessary".

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 23

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 8:21:08 AM

MasterCaneman

Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Way back in the day, before the internet made what we do mainstream, experiencing the submissive side was considered an important step to becoming a master. To the point that those who called themselves master and hadn't experienced being sub were considered posers.

Because I was young and dumb, that was how I was introduced to the scene back in the mid 80's. I won't get into details, but I decided then and there I wasn't a submissive type by any stretch of the imagination. On the plus side, I know what it feels like when someone doesn't know what they're doing, and it shaped how I treated my later playmates. As a result, I was more than bit reluctant on the physical punishment I administered to them. Restraint and control, yes, but I always held back on the impact play.

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(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 24

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 9:13:03 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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He really didn't have to have someone else hit him with a crop to know how it felt. He was capable of hitting himself once with it to see if it's stingy or thuddy and if it leaves welts or bruises. But him getting hit with it never would have given him the insight of how I feel about it.

I panic when I see it. So the only way he learned that was by paying attention to my responses. If he wants to use it, he blindfolds me so I can't see it and he throws it back in the bag when he's done so it isn't right next to me when he takes the blindfold off. No amount of experience himself with it would have taught him what my response was going to be.

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(in reply to MasterCaneman)

Post #: 25

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 9:31:16 AM

SweetAnise

Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
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No one can ever know how another person feels or thinks by being submissive or dominant but you most definitely know how you feel and think by your own experiences. And if a dominant decides they want to explore submission as a way to gain better insight to themselves as a dominant or to understand what being submissive is so be it. I personally don't believe because you're a president of a company makes you dominant it actually makes you in charge of a company- has nothing to do with learning about self.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 26

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 9:31:17 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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I don't have to top or dominate someone to understand how it feels. Nor does a Dominant need to submit to know how I feel.

For me, it it a combination of being turned on and being empathetic to a partner.

Think of fantasies. Often I fantasize about something and I feel both roles. I understand how the Dominant is feeling, without needing to do it myself. It is enough to know they are having strong feelings, you can identify intellectually and emotionally.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 27

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 10:42:14 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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To me, being a master or mistress means having mass amounts of experience and skill that the average dominant just does not possess.

Do I think most dominants need to have been a sub in order to know how to dominate? No, I don't. But if you want the spiffy title, in my mind it comes with extra spiffy training.

But this is just my opinion, you are free to disagree.

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Post #: 28

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 10:44:55 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAnise

No one can ever know how another person feels or thinks by being submissive or dominant but you most definitely know how you feel and think by your own experiences. And if a dominant decides they want to explore submission as a way to gain better insight to themselves as a dominant or to understand what being submissive is so be it. I personally don't believe because you're a president of a company makes you dominant it actually makes you in charge of a company- has nothing to do with learning about self.

I agree with this statement. I'm an old school business type who thinks the best way to learn how to run a company is to start from the bottom., and systematically work your way through all or most of the positions. This won't necessarily give you leadership and management skills, but it will make you a better boss.

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(in reply to SweetAnise)

Post #: 29

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 11:02:31 AM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
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Yeah, I know how to dominate extremely well. I just think maybe it takes more than that to be a Master. But maybe it's not necessary for me.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 30

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 11:19:23 AM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
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I have soooo much empathy for people. Maybe that's the true need. Maybe those who cannot empathize easily need to spend time as a slave to become a Master, but those who do empathize do not necessarily need to.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 31

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 11:45:58 AM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Yeah, I know how to dominate extremely well. I just think maybe it takes more than that to be a Master. But maybe it's not necessary for me.

You are correct.
It does take more than being able to dominate extremely well to be a Master.

You need to have relationship skills and you need to be able to communicate well (and that means having decent listening skills).

From what you have said here, I have a hunch that you tend to be in your head a lot.
There is nothing wrong with that.

But while you are dealing with your very busy brain, you seem to have forgotten something that comes up on these forums frequently: there is not just One way of doing things.
There is not a best way of doing things either.
There is only what works best for each of us individually.

And for you, there is figuring out what ways work for you and those you are in a power exchange relationship with.

Those who were first on the s-side of the kneel and then evolved to being on the D-side did so most often because that is what was true for them.
Those who began on the D-side or s-side and stayed there, do so because that also was what was true for them.

There are more than a few s-types who would never consider someone who had once been submissive.
It seems to diminish the prospective dominant's standing in their eyes that s/he did.

Be true to yourself and don't over-think things.

edit: clarity

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/3/2013 12:33:25 PM >

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(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 32

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 12:18:41 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

You're probably right. :)

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 33

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 12:30:31 PM

TigressLily

Posts: 436
Status: offline

This is the conundrum. Having empathy on the one hand, being accountable to oneself and others on the other hand. I believe in order to be a good, effective Master/Mistress, both qualities must be present and not mutually exclusive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

To be a Master, one must be in control of oneself. If one is in control of oneself, one should be able to submit to another if one wishes. If one cannot submit to another, how can one ever be a Master? It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?

As for the second part of your question, nobody's perfect. Perfection is a self-defeating standard at best. No leader, no Master, no Dominant is infallible, and it's unfair for an s-type to expect perfection and thereby contribute to your Master's stress levels. A good Master wouldn't want you to act like a robot, nor should you expect him/her to be superhuman, a cardboard cut-out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I definitely don't need a master who has experienced being a sub.

Juxtaposed against this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

I learnt a lot from the few times I've subbed. I don't think I would have anywhere near as good an idea where my subs' heads are if I'd never been there myself.

I'm inclined to agree with CP, selectively excerpted as follows:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Way back in the day,.. experiencing the submissive side was considered an important step to becoming a master. To the point that those who called themselves master and hadn't experienced being sub were considered posers.

In any case, I think serving as a submissive is an important step for anyone wishing to be a master or mistress. To me those titles imply a level of competence far beyond the average dominant.

The rationale was not that a dominant should learn to enjoy being a sub, but that he/she should have enough humility and desire to learn that they would be willing to subject themselves to another's dominance.
- - -
To me, being a master or mistress means having mass amounts of experience and skill that the average dominant just does not possess.
- - -
I'm an old school business type who thinks the best way to learn how to run a company is to start from the bottom., and systematically work your way through all or most of the positions. This won't necessarily give you leadership and management skills, but it will make you a better boss.*

* I used to really enjoy watching that Undercover Boss show.

SWT, the fact that you care enough about your slaves to pose this question shows you want to be a better Master, which in itself is a sign of being a good Master. Truthfully, none of us are exempt from various forms of submission, whether we like it or not. All of us were children once and had to submit to our parents, teachers, elders, a few bosses we've had to put up with or humor to one extent or another. Some of us still have to. (And if you're a parent, you know all too well there are times when you find yourself acquiescing to the wishes of your children.) As kalikshama states, "I've known plenty of Doms who were self-employed...but they are still answerable to their customers."

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_____________________________

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Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 34

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 12:49:09 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
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Yeah, I haven't really submitted in any of those situations. I mean, sometimes going along is the smart thing to do, but that's not necessarily submitting.

(in reply to TigressLily)

Post #: 35

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 12:59:26 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

There are more than a few s-types who would never consider someone who had once been submissive.
It seems to diminish the prospective dominant's standing in their eyes that s/he did.

On the other hand, there are more than a few s-types who think that Narcissists, Psychopaths and Sociopaths are "True Doms".

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 36

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 2:08:00 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

I don't come from leather culture, nor gay culture, so I don't have the more formalized background that some who come from those cultures adhere to. But to me, it's not necessary to submit in order to be able to dominate. In fact, as some have already said, it may require the Dom/Domme to go totally against their nature.

HOWEVER, as one who started off as a Dom, and is now a sub, I can DEFINITELY say that I would make a better Dom now than I did before I submitted. I am not necessarily any more dominant now than I was then, but I definitely have a better understanding of the submissive mind. Heck, having now spent over 10 years as a sub, I think I could be a very good top. I think I could help a sub get into sub space a bit easier than some tops might. As the saying goes, "there's no better teacher than experience."

So I can understand why having submitted would benefit a Dom/Domme. But I certainly don't see it as a necessity.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 37

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 2:17:27 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

To be a Master, one must be in control of oneself. If one is in control of oneself, one should be able to submit to another if one wishes. If one cannot submit to another, how can one ever be a Master? It seems to me that perhaps one must submit at some point on the journey to being a Master.

But I do not think I can. Domly Doms consider that a badge of honor. Is it actually a flaw?

Do you think you can be good at eating pussy without having a vagina? Guys can get pretty good at it, but the ladies are probably better, on average, because they have a better idea of how things feel. But even so, some women love receiving oral sex, and others can't stand it. So there's no one-size-fits-all.

I think topping skills are pretty much the same. Someone who has bottomed probably has an advantage, on average, when it comes to learning topping skills. But that advantage can disappear over time, as the top who never bottoms gains experience and maturity.

What do you mean by Master? A stupendous Top? A man who owns female property? Or something different?

Maybe decide what you want your kink goals to be, and figure out how to achieve those goals. That's pretty much what I do. I have an unwritten list of things I want to accomplish and learn, and I check items off that list over time, as I add new items to it. I don't really care who calls me what, though "cutiepie" made me smile not long ago.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 38

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 2:27:51 PM

TigressLily

Posts: 436
Status: offline

Let me get this straight. You don't consider that you've ever 'really submitted' to anyone in your life? Or just not on a regular basis?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Yeah, I haven't really submitted in any of those situations. I mean, sometimes going along is the smart thing to do, but that's not necessarily submitting.

You had parents/guardians and teachers that's a given. Possibly sports coaches, Scout Masters, driving instructor, pastor/priest, older siblings. Taking childhood out of the equation, in your adult life:

-- Have you ever been pulled over by a cop or questioned by detectives?
-- Have you ever appeared before a judge? Had to answer Interrogatories, give a deposition or other sworn testimony, take a lawyer's advice, accept a plea bargain for yourself or other loved one?
-- Have you ever been in a vanilla marriage? Gone through a vanilla separation, divorce, dealt with child custody issues, paid child support?
-- Do you listen to your accountant or tax attorney's advice? Are you making your bookkeeper tear his/her hair out because you don't keep an impeccable paper trail?
-- Do you pay taxes to Uncle Sam? Follow other laws for the most part, even those you might not agree with?
-- Have you ever been in the Armed Forces?
-- Have you ever joined a union?
-- Do you belong to any professional organizations or trade associations that you actively participate in?
-- Have you ever had to meet with the principal or school administrator about your child, attend a parent-teacher conference or PTA meeting? Scout meeting?

_____________________________

* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *

_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 39

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/3/2013 2:38:14 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

I don't come from leather culture, nor gay culture, so I don't have the more formalized background that some who come from those cultures adhere to. But to me, it's not necessary to submit in order to be able to dominate. In fact, as some have already said, it may require the Dom/Domme to go totally against their nature.

HOWEVER, as one who started off as a Dom, and is now a sub, I can DEFINITELY say that I would make a better Dom now than I did before I submitted. I am not necessarily any more dominant now than I was then, but I definitely have a better understanding of the submissive mind. Heck, having now spent over 10 years as a sub, I think I could be a very good top. I think I could help a sub get into sub space a bit easier than some tops might. As the saying goes, "there's no better teacher than experience."

So I can understand why having submitted would benefit a Dom/Domme. But I certainly don't see it as a necessity.

Right, I'm not saying it's necessary to be a Dominant. I'm saying maybe it's necessary to be a Master.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 40

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