quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily


Let me get this straight. You don't consider that you've ever 'really submitted' to anyone in your life? Or just not on a regular basis?

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Yeah, I haven't really submitted in any of those situations. I mean, sometimes going along is the smart thing to do, but that's not necessarily submitting.

You had parents/guardians and teachers that's a given. Possibly sports coaches, Scout Masters, driving instructor, pastor/priest, older siblings. Taking childhood out of the equation, in your adult life:

-- Have you ever been pulled over by a cop or questioned by detectives?
-- Have you ever appeared before a judge? Had to answer Interrogatories, give a deposition or other sworn testimony, take a lawyer's advice, accept a plea bargain for yourself or other loved one?
-- Have you ever been in a vanilla marriage? Gone through a vanilla separation, divorce, dealt with child custody issues, paid child support?
-- Do you listen to your accountant or tax attorney's advice? Are you making your bookkeeper tear his/her hair out because you don't keep an impeccable paper trail?
-- Do you pay taxes to Uncle Sam? Follow other laws for the most part, even those you might not agree with?
-- Have you ever been in the Armed Forces?
-- Have you ever joined a union?
-- Do you belong to any professional organizations or trade associations that you actively participate in?
-- Have you ever had to meet with the principal or school administrator about your child, attend a parent-teacher conference or PTA meeting? Scout meeting?

_____________________________

* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission.

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission.

quote:

Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses?

If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention.

Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

If you want another way to look at the subject - Can you really be submissive if you haven't been dominant?

and if you put it that way, the original question seems a bit silly.....



edited to add - not silly for asking the question, but silly because there are people who consider the original question really really valid. From my point of view either question has the same merit - that is to say - not much.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

..... I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. ....

. S types seldom seek the role out and are most often mentally drained from the efforts needed.

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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily


Well, you wouldn't want to go up against an HOA-HomeOwners Association out in the suburbs, that's for sure.

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission.

Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses?

If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention.

Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience.

_____________________________

* * * Not A Fetish/Kink Delivery System * * *

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
Fake submission isn't submission. I can "submit" to a beating in a way that's entirely dominant. Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is. I had parents and teachers. That doesn't mean I ever submitted to any of them. None of them were ever able to prove themselves worthy of my submission.

By this measure do you also count people like OsideGirl, who has a very dominant personality yet submits within her primary relationship, "fakes"?

On a more general note, I'm pleased to be able to say I've known several people in my life who were worthy of my submission. I do get your larger point though. No, I do not submit to bosses, judges, cops et.al. They are either right or they are not. In all cases I've found some other strategy than simply sucking it up and submitting. In those cases where I have submitted to a boss, he earned it fair and square.

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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain) down to a something measurable, the balls out truth about dominance is that if you can't kick (or kill) everyone's ass in the room, you are not going to be on top when it's Lord of the Flies time.

Do I like the old guard (gay) system of going through the ranks starting as submissive and learning before you finally get your cap and become a Master . . . yes I like it. It makes for a much better educated class of Masters. In fact, in a group like that, you will never see the dumb ass shit about protocols, labels and definitions like you see in the hetro world.

Outside of the human world, in the animal kingdom, there is noting that agrees with learning dominance through submission. In fact, it is quite the reverse in that dominants start out that way, even as early as behavior in the womb. Yes, some of our animal friends truly are "natural born dominants".

I came up the old fashioned way and would meet the criteria, but I still do not agree with the OP.

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Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is.

Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

Really? I see it as fulfilling my side of an obligation. It's an honor thing and has nothing to do with "submitting" in the way I view it. That's exactly why I instruct my accountants to NOT play any freaky games with the numbers whether or not the games are legal.

On the other hand, when I became sure the government was no longer honorably fulfilling it's part of the bargain I moved to another country.

I don't see much submission in either case.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

Really? I see it as fulfilling my side of an obligation. It's an honor thing and has nothing to do with "submitting" in the way I view it. That's exactly why I instruct my accountants to NOT play any freaky games with the numbers whether or not the games are legal.

On the other hand, when I became sure the government was no longer honorably fulfilling it's part of the bargain I moved to another country.

I don't see much submission in either case.