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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

I suspect the Old Guard system was more about weeding out the posers than any actual need to learn submission. It was just something I've been thinking about this week.

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ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I don't agree with comparing D/s to life issues like taxes, medical issues, the court system, etc.

That is just silly and not comparable at all.

If you feel threatened by having to submit to things that we all need to do, then you have some boundary issues.

My sex life, which involves submission is entirely different than what I need to do in daily life.

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
LOL, what is owning a slave but teaching? ;)

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ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

I think the argument of saying that you have to experience something to be able to appreciate it or understand it is like saying that you have to receive anal to be able to do it. It doesn't make sense. If my surgeon hasn't ever had surgery, does that mean that him having surgery makes him a better surgeon? I don't think so.

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And the two dominants/tops I have known intimately have never had any desire to submit. So , for them, bottoming wouldn't give them any insights at all. In fact, if you think about it, bottoming when not wanting to is a violation of their integrity as a person. I wouldn't even call it submitting, because they aren't. Its more bottoming since it isn't who they are, its more of acting a scene. Role playing if you will = and while its fun, there isn't a learning situation there.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

..... I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. ....

And this is why I don't see actions of leadership as being a Dominant. Though being a Dominant often equates to being a leader.

Leadership can be externally driven or internally driven. Situational leadership is because the external situation demands it and sometimes very submissive persons are thrust into the roll for a lot of different reasons. Maybe knowledge and skill for the task at hand. Maybe voluntold. Lol. My girls can be very capable leaders in the right circumstances that demand it of them. But I find S types tend to find this a more stressful situation than a d type would. It sort of like the extrovert is gratified and fulfilled being in that crowded room and even energized while the introvert is drained because of it.

Internal driven leadership is D types. Besides the fun of leading a crowd and the results achieved. Their is an internal energy that a d type gains. Being in The roll of leadership feeds and empowers the d type. They not only tend to gravitate to these roles but seek them out. S types seldom seek the role out and are most often mentally drained from the efforts needed.

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ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Way back in the day, before the internet made what we do mainstream, experiencing the submissive side was considered an important step to becoming a master. To the point that those who called themselves master and hadn't experienced being sub were considered posers.

Because I was young and dumb, that was how I was introduced to the scene back in the mid 80's. I won't get into details, but I decided then and there I wasn't a submissive type by any stretch of the imagination. On the plus side, I know what it feels like when someone doesn't know what they're doing, and it shaped how I treated my later playmates. As a result, I was more than bit reluctant on the physical punishment I administered to them. Restraint and control, yes, but I always held back on the impact play.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I don't agree with comparing D/s to life issues like taxes, medical issues, the court system, etc.

That is just silly and not comparable at all.

If you feel threatened by having to submit to things that we all need to do, then you have some boundary issues.

I agree. As I was reading White Tiger's declaration that he has never submitted to anyone, I wasn't impressed by how "domly" he is. Rather, I found myself thinking that he is a sociopath with an over-inflated ego. We ALL submit. Whether it's to parents, bosses, teachers, laws, police officers, etc., we ALL submit. Whether we do so willingly or not is immaterial. When you see the flashing red & blue lights in your rearview mirror, you pull over. Otherwise, you'll be submitting behind bars (though probably not willingly). Arguments to the contrary are just silly (IMO).

ETA: That's not a personal attack against SerWhiteTiger, and I apologize if it came off as such. I don't know him, and I've had few interactions with him on CM. My comment was generic in nature, and refers to ANYONE who thinks they've never submitted.

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

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ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

There are more than a few s-types who would never consider someone who had once been submissive.
It seems to diminish the prospective dominant's standing in their eyes that s/he did.

On the other hand, there are more than a few s-types who think that Narcissists, Psychopaths and Sociopaths are "True Doms".

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

..... I don't slip into a leadership roll because my personality demands it but because the situation does. ....

And this is why I don't see actions of leadership as being a Dominant. Though being a Dominant often equates to being a leader.

Leadership can be externally driven or internally driven. Situational leadership is because the external situation demands it and sometimes very submissive persons are thrust into the roll for a lot of different reasons. Maybe knowledge and skill for the task at hand. Maybe voluntold. Lol. My girls can be very capable leaders in the right circumstances that demand it of them. But I find S types tend to find this a more stressful situation than a d type would. It sort of like the extrovert is gratified and fulfilled being in that crowded room and even energized while the introvert is drained because of it.

Internal driven leadership is D types. Besides the fun of leading a crowd and the results achieved. Their is an internal energy that a d type gains. Being in The roll of leadership feeds and empowers the d type. They not only tend to gravitate to these roles but seek them out. S types seldom seek the role out and are most often mentally drained from the efforts needed.

If I read you right, you assume that what you do sexually equals what you do in the rest of your life, and I have seen far too many examples of the opposite to believe that.

We are simply all much more nuanced than that.

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Some people think D/s and M/s are about sex when, of course, they aren't.

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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
LOL, what is owning a slave but teaching? ;)

That is a nice alt perspective, but many slaves are already very well trained. So I ask you this:

What if the slave is already trained**. Other than remembering your preferences, their is nothing for you to teach. A well trained slave asks what your preferences and pleasures are, how many sugars you want, if you like salts in your bath etc. They train themselves. What can we possibly teach a well trained slave?

For me, owning a slave is often what I learn from them. Unlocking their psyche to reveal their darkest fantasies and then seducing them with their own forbidden fruit.

**Trained - I was at workshop and the discussion was about training to "the collar" (euro-style) verses being trained to the Master. For me, the notion of training to the Master is romantic, an extension of relationship skills. Not all slaves want love or romance, some want to serve the house (or in Europe, the collar) and feel owned. They want the security of the leather routine, a classic but predictable set of expectations and rewards.

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Do you have enough respect for your physician to follow doctor's orders? Dentists, PAs, RN/LPN nurses?

If your criterion is willingness, who the hell wants to willingly undergo surgery? But faced with a life-or-death decision, chances are you will submit to medical intervention.

Submission is submission is submission. You can label it fake all you want, but I think you're only kidding yourself. If you aren't in a position to exert dominance or not in elective control of any given situation, then you've been required to submit. You've undergone your trials by fire--we all have. It's an inescapable part of the human experience.

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ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

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ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Some people think D/s and M/s are about sex when, of course, they aren't.

Except, of course, when they are.

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ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

If you want another way to look at the subject - Can you really be submissive if you haven't been dominant?

and if you put it that way, the original question seems a bit silly.....

edited to add - not silly for asking the question, but silly because there are people who consider the original question really really valid. From my point of view either question has the same merit - that is to say - not much.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
If you are trying to boil dominance (master of my domain)

That note eloquently states how i view "dominance".

the balls out truth about dominance is that if you can't kick (or kill) everyone's ass in the room, you are not going to be on top when it's Lord of the Flies time.
Yup agreed. Now that us humans build such huge packs the idea that I am "the dominant" or anywhere near there seems rather ridiculous. I'm "more dominant than most" which is enough, in my mind, to wear the "dominant" label. Also, if we're talking about dominance at this level it's worth noting that it's not a static thing. Pack positions change for a variety of reasons.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is.

Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.