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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:46:47 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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But look,
Say you had to have brain surgery, two surgeons; each alike in dignity. . .

One has performed brain surgery on himself, one has not.
Who is going to perform brain surgery on you?

The relevance in the philosophical gravamen of the question is de minimis.

_____________________________

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(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 101

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:48:31 PM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's physical submission, but not mental. If you are tied up, you are being forced to submit, but it's not until you stop struggling and accept it that you have submitted. I pay my taxes, but I'm still struggling and do not accept it.

If you are tied up, you are not submitting, you are overpowered and would still fight if you could. I find that incompatible with the word 'submit', as I understand it.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 102

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:51:22 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern
I simply cannot understand why dominating a room of people (why would you do that, anyway??) is the same as, or a condition to be able to be, a Master or Mistress. They are completely different situations.

Why I would do it is because it's some sort of business meeting and it's a clusterfuck and I don't have the time or patience to deal with the continuation of same.

Whether or not that is the same as "being a master" is open to interpretation. In my world it is the same as "being dominant". I have no particular meaning attached to the word "master".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to egern)

Post #: 103

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:51:52 PM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I definitely don't need a master who has experienced being a sub.

agree totally.

Why is that?

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 104

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:55:51 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Then it's safe to dance.

S-A-F-E-T-Y (etc.)

nod

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 105

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 2:58:11 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Taxes is a good one. I pay taxes, yes, not in submission, but to protect my loved ones in being a responsible Dom for them. Is that submission? Maybe it is.

Yes, I see paying taxes as submitting to the authority of the IRS.

I see it as doing my duty to the community, and I pay willingly.

And I see it as protecting my family from the evil the IRS can reign down upon them, so I pay willingly. But not submissively. But maybe I'm being excessively nitpicky in my definitions.

(in reply to egern)

Post #: 106

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 3:00:16 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But look,
Say you had to have brain surgery, two surgeons; each alike in dignity. . .

One has performed brain surgery on himself, one has not.
Who is going to perform brain surgery on you?

The relevance in the philosophical gravamen of the question is de minimis.

Hmm, I do like this analogy.

And there's more than one way to perform brain surgery on yourself.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 107

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 3:01:26 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's physical submission, but not mental. If you are tied up, you are being forced to submit, but it's not until you stop struggling and accept it that you have submitted. I pay my taxes, but I'm still struggling and do not accept it.

If you are tied up, you are not submitting, you are overpowered and would still fight if you could. I find that incompatible with the word 'submit', as I understand it.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. The person tying you is trying to force you to submit, but submission doesn't come until you give up the fight and submit.

(in reply to egern)

Post #: 108

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 3:20:30 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

I guess... being a master is more about being in control of how you affect others than being able to make yourself do anything. There are a lot of valuable lessons to be learned from submission, but it isn't strictly necessary.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 109

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 3:46:14 PM

Pleasure79Pain80

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/8/2013
Status: offline

Rules,tags,labels,roles,positions,titles... my opinion is that it's all relative. Relative to whom you are with, why, how, and how much you know about yourself and your partner. You are not a Dominant, a Master, a Submissive, a Slave for the world, you are for someone. The meaning of your title is given to you in relation to someone else's action. Someone choses to be submissive to you, therefore you have a dominant role in this person's life. If that's what you like, you found your spot. If you want to play,experiment, being submissive to someone, then do it. There is no universal rule (or at least there are very few), but there are millions of opinions. If you open a thread like this you'll hear everything and the opposite of it. I've read all the entries, and guess what? I find them all understandable, from the one that says she will never agree a Dom should try to be submissive, to the one that says that 'back in the days' you had to do it. None of them are wrong or right, universally speaking. The just chose that because that's what they like. You should do the same. Forget about what others think and think on your own, if you think that experiencing being submissive will enlight you, go ahead, if you want to do it, do it. Maybe don't advertise it too much, those that point fingers are quick at it.

(in reply to egern)

Post #: 110

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 3:50:28 PM

HarryVanWinkle

Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Some people think D/s and M/s are about sex when, of course, they aren't.

Except, of course, when they are.

Someone might choose to only express their D/s in the bedroom, but I dunno that that makes it about sex. It's just that sex is where they feel safe expressing themselves.

Or someone might only be interested in d/s when in the "bedroom" and have no interest in it otherwise.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 111

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 4:33:45 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
I guess... being a master is more about being in control of how you affect others than being able to make yourself do anything.

Agreed... except if you can't do the latter you can't do the former either. You know... control of others starts with control of yourself. The words "strength" and "discipline" apply to that concept. From there flows words like "honor" and "integrity". From there you get to respect and trust and at that point the control of the other person is trivially easy.

quote:

There are a lot of valuable lessons to be learned from submission, but it isn't strictly necessary.

Agreed.

Back to your original question, without knowing what you mean by "master" it's hard to really say. Do you have some externally imposed definition (eg: leather culture) or is this your own rule set?

I have to admit that for me I don't really care. I care about winning... achieving my goals, etc. Relevant to this discussion my goal is "happily ever after" and if I'm getting there then I'm... well... happy :) I call myself a master rather than a dominant simply because it's expedient. That term, to most BDSM people, seems to get closer to our relationship than any other. In the vanilla world I'm "head of the household" or simply "her husband" because those terms get closest for most vanilla folks.

At one point I did care a lot more.. not so much about other people's view of me but of my own. I wonder if I've lost something important along the way. That may need to be revisited.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 112

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 7:23:42 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger
I want to learn everything I can about how my submissives and slaves feel in order to be the best Master I can be for them.

If your not a submissive you can't learn how your subs feeling by being on the wrong side of D/s. Because you won't be having the same emotions. On the other hand if your really a switch then I think you'd be more emotionally fullfilled in the long run to just admit it and not need to make up excuses for expressing your submissive self.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 113

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 8:17:14 PM

SerWhiteTiger

Posts: 437
Joined: 8/12/2013
From: Why is my name Florida? That's a state!
Status: offline

Maybe I just need to get a tattoo.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 114

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/4/2013 9:13:40 PM

TigressLily

Posts: 436
Status: offline

Y'all are in denial. (Dominants and submissives alike)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Y'all are crazy.

{taken out of context}]

~FRs~ I'm sure you've seen this a hundred times already:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/submission?q=submission
noun • 1 the action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person:they were forced into submission
• Wrestling an act of surrendering to a hold by one’s opponent.
• archaic humility; meekness:servile flattery and submission
• 2 the action of presenting a proposal, application, or other document for consideration or judgment:
[I include #2 above to tie in a definition I once came across long ago of the word submit meaning "to give" or "to give way."]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/submit?s=t
verb (used with object)
1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually followed by a clause): I submit that full proof should be required.
verb (used without object)
5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.
6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.
7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.
Origin: 1325–75; Middle English submitten < Latin submittere to lower, reduce, yield, equivalent to sub- sub- + mittere to send

http://www.answers.com/topic/submission
American Heritage Dictionary (n)
• The act of submitting to the power of another: "Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission" (Simone Weil).
• The state of having submitted.
Middle English submissioun, from Old French submission, from Latin submissiō, submissiōn-, a lowering, from submissus, past participle of submittere, to set under

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_the_word_submissive
Answer: inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient

What you are referring to Sur when describing yourself is specifically termed passive submission:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_passive_submission&src=ansTT

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_____________________________

That Orbed Maiden with White Fire Layden
Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 115

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 12:51:22 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Some people think D/s and M/s are about sex when, of course, they aren't.

Except, of course, when they are.

;-))

(in reply to HarryVanWinkle)

Post #: 116

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:00:09 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern
I simply cannot understand why dominating a room of people (why would you do that, anyway??) is the same as, or a condition to be able to be, a Master or Mistress. They are completely different situations.

Why I would do it is because it's some sort of business meeting and it's a clusterfuck and I don't have the time or patience to deal with the continuation of same.

Whether or not that is the same as "being a master" is open to interpretation. In my world it is the same as "being dominant". I have no particular meaning attached to the word "master".

Getting into labels here - pulling out of that one, as it is an individual thing anyway.

What I meant was, it sounds to me as if you (and some others if I read them right) are of the opinion that if you are a sexual dominant (insert anything here from top to D to Master/Mistress) you are also dominant in about all other situations.

It has a bearing on the OP's question on whether you have to learn some submission in order to be a good dominant, or not, and the following discussion about what submission in 'non-bdsm life' is.

If we have to submit in ordinary lives in a number of situations, it might be argued that submission is learned automatically - if that is necessary/an advantage to becoming a good Dom.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 117

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:01:38 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

It's physical submission, but not mental. If you are tied up, you are being forced to submit, but it's not until you stop struggling and accept it that you have submitted. I pay my taxes, but I'm still struggling and do not accept it.

If you are tied up, you are not submitting, you are overpowered and would still fight if you could. I find that incompatible with the word 'submit', as I understand it.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. The person tying you is trying to force you to submit, but submission doesn't come until you give up the fight and submit.

No, I do not agree. Being temporarily unable to fight is not the same as submitting.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 118

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:04:11 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pleasure79Pain80

Rules,tags,labels,roles,positions,titles... my opinion is that it's all relative. Relative to whom you are with, why, how, and how much you know about yourself and your partner. You are not a Dominant, a Master, a Submissive, a Slave for the world, you are for someone. The meaning of your title is given to you in relation to someone else's action. Someone choses to be submissive to you, therefore you have a dominant role in this person's life. If that's what you like, you found your spot. If you want to play,experiment, being submissive to someone, then do it. There is no universal rule (or at least there are very few), but there are millions of opinions. If you open a thread like this you'll hear everything and the opposite of it. I've read all the entries, and guess what? I find them all understandable, from the one that says she will never agree a Dom should try to be submissive, to the one that says that 'back in the days' you had to do it. None of them are wrong or right, universally speaking. The just chose that because that's what they like. You should do the same. Forget about what others think and think on your own, if you think that experiencing being submissive will enlight you, go ahead, if you want to do it, do it. Maybe don't advertise it too much, those that point fingers are quick at it.

I am not sure you are talking to me, as I did not open the thread, but anyway, I agree :-)

(in reply to Pleasure79Pain80)

Post #: 119

RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:05:41 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

I guess... being a master is more about being in control of how you affect others than being able to make yourself do anything. There are a lot of valuable lessons to be learned from submission, but it isn't strictly necessary.

However, it might be argued that being in control of yourself is a must if you want to be in control of others.

(in reply to SerWhiteTiger)

Post #: 120

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