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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:07:16 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Some people think D/s and M/s are about sex when, of course, they aren't.

Except, of course, when they are.

Someone might choose to only express their D/s in the bedroom, but I dunno that that makes it about sex. It's just that sex is where they feel safe expressing themselves.

Or someone might only be interested in d/s when in the "bedroom" and have no interest in it otherwise.

Yep.
There are many ways.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 1:38:28 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily

Y'all are in denial. (Dominants and submissives alike)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Y'all are crazy.

{taken out of context}]

~FRs~ I'm sure you've seen this a hundred times already:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/submission?q=submission
noun • 1 the action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person:they were forced into submission
• Wrestling an act of surrendering to a hold by one’s opponent.
• archaic humility; meekness:servile flattery and submission
• 2 the action of presenting a proposal, application, or other document for consideration or judgment:
[I include #2 above to tie in a definition I once came across long ago of the word submit meaning "to give" or "to give way."]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/submit?s=t
verb (used with object)
1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually followed by a clause): I submit that full proof should be required.
verb (used without object)
5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.
6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.
7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.
Origin: 1325–75; Middle English submitten < Latin submittere to lower, reduce, yield, equivalent to sub- sub- + mittere to send

http://www.answers.com/topic/submission
American Heritage Dictionary (n)
• The act of submitting to the power of another: "Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission" (Simone Weil).
• The state of having submitted.
Middle English submissioun, from Old French submission, from Latin submissiō, submissiōn-, a lowering, from submissus, past participle of submittere, to set under

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_the_word_submissive
Answer: inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient

What you are referring to Sur when describing yourself is specifically termed passive submission:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_passive_submission&src=ansTT

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If you look up 'slave', what will you find? Probably not what this community thinks it is - whatever that is for the individual, the consensus is that it is voluntary. I do not think that anyone here would claim that forcibly abduction someone out of their lives and selling them somewhere else is bdsm.

The use of many words in bdsm as opposed to the rest of our lives must be seen as different things for all that they are the same words.

In bdsm submitting - as I see it - is something you do voluntarily, or learn to do, voluntarily.
It has to do with 'obedience' and 'surrender' and with something you want.

In the out-of-bdsm world submitting may be something involuntary, maybe something you lurk to change at the first possible change you get. Not the same thing. But it all depends on the situation.

If a police car signal to you to pull over, do you 'submit' to this signal, or do you simply comply as a sensible citizen, because you think the police should be there and do their job?

However, if you are a thief running away and a police person shouts 'stop or I shoot' you'll submit to being arrested.

You do not 'submit' to the doctor or dentist or surgeon, you ask them to help you and follow their treatment or advice by your own choice.

You submit to paying taxes if you do not want to but cannot avoid it, but the feeling of submission that we talk about in bdsm is surely another thing ;-)
If you pay them as your due and willingly, you just pay taxes, period, as you pay other expenses. You do not 'submit' to paying your grocery bill, as you yourself have chosen to buy them.

I must admit I cannot see 'submission' in terms of normal life, except in some radical situations, so the idea that you can learn bdsm submission that way does not work for me.

I do not think you can learn from submitting in a bdsm way if you have no feelings in that quarter at all.

But more people do than we think, as I have learned from clubs and camps where the number of experiments go up with feelings of comfort and safety. Doms can be afraid of sub reactions if they admit to having more feelings than dom, and so keep mum about it unless the situation is safe enough to try things out. Same with subs, who are afraid of testing dom feelings out, fearing to do it, or fearing that they are no longer 'real' subs if they experiment. If you organize evenings in complete discretion you'd be surprised who turns up, and to my mind that is freedom :-)

This is to say that, as I think it is an advantage - a big advantage - to know both sides, I'd say go ahead and try and don't be scared.

Think of it this way: reading a lot about what it is like to be a soldier does not teach you what it feels like to be one, and to be in combat. If you are a soldier, and have been in combat, it is true that you do not know how all the other soldiers feel exactly on an individual basis, but you know a hell of a lot more than anyone who has never been a soldier.

< Message edited by egern -- 10/5/2013 1:40:28 AM >

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 2:47:17 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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FR:

This discussion has come to the crux of the issue: what exactly *is* submission as we use the term.

I think everyone on this board has the experience of having submitted to a boss. What does that mean? Easy: she/he's in charge. They get to tell you what to do, and you have to do it or face the consequences. You have to do it even if you don't think it's the right thing to do. Now, if you have a good boss, he may solicit your input. But he still gets the final say because he's your boss.

You are not submitting to him or her b/c they are a superior being, but b/c that is the agreement you entered into upon accepting employment.

I don't see what we do as any different. *EXCEPT* the reasons for agreeing to submit to another.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/5/2013 4:16:43 AM

orgasmdenial12

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I couldn't submit to someone who had previously been submissive in a BDSM sense. My libido just says 'no'. Submission, for me, is the pinnacle of sexual expression. I need someone who thinks the same way about their Dominance, and simply doesn't doubt it, or feel the need to submit to others.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 7:19:53 AM

littlewonder

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If Master ever said he was interested in submitting, our relationship would be over. It's not the man I fell in love with and I have zero interest in submissive or bottom men.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 11:26:29 AM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

If you want another way to look at the subject - Can you really be submissive if you haven't been dominant?

and if you put it that way, the original question seems a bit silly.....

edited to add - not silly for asking the question, but silly because there are people who consider the original question really really valid. From my point of view either question has the same merit - that is to say - not much.

Obviously the same logic applies - a sub who has been a dominant would know a lot more about what a good/bad dominant are, and would be able to choose much better.

A sub who has been in the role of a dominant probably wouldn't learn what makes a good/bad dominant is, simply because they themselves might not be a good dominant and think what they did is what a good dominant should use. Some of what makes a good dominant is contextual to a relationship and its dynamics, what is good in one would be horrible in another (for example, a Ds where humiliation is used, cuckolding, demeaning the sub, etc, might work great in some relationships, it would cause mayhem in mine, might even end up in jail, and to be honest I look at humiliation and have a hard time understand how some think it is good, but that is my perspective and I own that).

I don't think someone who is dominant playing the sub role, going into it, is going to learn much about being a dominant, because the feelings are there. If a dominant gets humiliated and he/she reacts badly, that doesn't mean humiliation is bad, it just means it doesn't work for them, and what if their sub craves that? To be honest, a dominant who does that is playing the role, in a sense is bottoming rather than submitting, and it won't do much to give insight. Not saying it won't work for some dominants, of course, someone who is kind of in the middle of the D/s spectrum might get something out of it I would guess, but I still don't think the whole 'the best dominants were once subs' in actuality works, I think it was something , based on exposure to people who were part of the old guard, that was an attempt to create a training system for dominants, a way to make sure they could handle the responsibility and so forth by having them empathize with the sub and understand what wielding the power meant to the sub...

My personal take is I think I learned a lot more about what makes a good dominant/good submissive from looking at other's relationships, seeing the interplay between dominant and sub/master and slave, and watching how their relationship unfolded. As in a lot of life, I think I also learned a lot when relationships failed, when they blew up, when problems happened, about what could work and what didn't. It is always still dependent on the individual relationship and what cracked up one relationship might not crack up another, but it still was valuable to me. I think dominants might learn more by observing other dominants and subs and seeing how they worked, seeing how it works out, and I could argue that a way for a dominant to learn might be to be some sort of apprenticeship to another dominant, problem there being how could that happen? would that mean the 'apprentice' was a part of the D/s relationship they are 'apprenticed' to? Would be kind of weird:)

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 7:20:29 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I couldn't submit to someone who had previously been submissive in a BDSM sense. My libido just says 'no'. Submission, for me, is the pinnacle of sexual expression. I need someone who thinks the same way about their Dominance, and simply doesn't doubt it, or feel the need to submit to others.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. That's exactly how I feel about Dominance. I don't doubt it. I don't feel the need to submit to others.

But I wonder if I couldn't learn more about being a better Dominant in that it would help me better understand my submissive's point of view. So I kinda want to try, even though I don't feel the need and don't really want to.

But I don't think I could really do it, so it's probably moot.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 7:21:46 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

If Master ever said he was interested in submitting, our relationship would be over. It's not the man I fell in love with and I have zero interest in submissive or bottom men.

We're not talking about submissive or bottom men here, we're talking about Dominant men.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 9:50:05 PM

SurrenderForMe

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Yes.

Lady Pact said it very well and so did others. Yes, submitting may let you experience what a sub experiences. But it doesn't make you feel what they feel. Empathy is enhanced when you share experiences, but not if the experience is good for one and bad for another.

I can take a lot of pain. I hate it. I used to religiously test out new sensations on myself out of curiosity, residual peer pressure and prudence. I even had someone hit me once. At the time he was a friend. After, I could never see or think of him without feeling negative. He is a distant memory because of that, through no fault of his own.

That wasn't d/s so much, but it was an example in BDSM that fit experiencing the other side. I am not a lesser dominant because submitting would damage me. I am not submissive and can't experience submission the way a submissive can.

I and everyone else has someone or something they submit to in the day to day world, that does not help me understand the mindset that makes someone submissive. I just know that when there is reciprocal attraction, the pieces fit like a lock and key and I don't care which is lock and which is key. Isn't that the point?

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/6/2013 11:09:45 PM

RemoteUser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

FR:

This discussion has come to the crux of the issue: what exactly *is* submission as we use the term.

I think everyone on this board has the experience of having submitted to a boss. What does that mean? Easy: she/he's in charge. They get to tell you what to do, and you have to do it or face the consequences. You have to do it even if you don't think it's the right thing to do. Now, if you have a good boss, he may solicit your input. But he still gets the final say because he's your boss.

You are not submitting to him or her b/c they are a superior being, but b/c that is the agreement you entered into upon accepting employment.

I don't see what we do as any different. *EXCEPT* the reasons for agreeing to submit to another.

Funny you should say this. In my working world I have to click a 'Submit' button multiple times daily. All I'm offering is data to be processed, not my "Twue Dom" badge. (No one gets that, it's mine! Fuckers.) Conversely, my boss often makes decisions I don't agree with. I don't submit to her. I let her become a wiser person by giving her full rein when she demands to enforce a critical mistake. As long as she doesn't pull the whole corporation down, I'm good with that.

I started when the early online days were brand new, so I remember what you remember, too.

In regards to the OP, I don't think the ideals of a boss and a dominant are the same. They cross paths, sure, but only in terms of decision making and (theoretically) sound judgement. As a working boss I do expect to be able to do any task I set someone else to, because I believe I should be able to teach them how to do what I need from them. As a dominant personality I expect a specific, chosen partner (my girl) to do things for me that match both our interests, and she holds me in the same respect. She doesn't want me to do what I expect from her, that would invalidate our mutual understanding - which, taken back to the context of working, is something any good boss wouldn't do without reason.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 3:10:49 AM

petitespot

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So say you did bottom to feel the sensations we feel.
Hard on when you were cuffed? Hard on when punched?
Probably not.
Doing all of the physical things isn't ever going to give you a clue about what goes through our minds when we experience those things. Generally, submissives and masochists process those physical acts differently.
For me....it's foreplay. It gets me really wet and turned on. Hell, even something as innocent as being given a list of things he wanted me to get for him did it for me.
Your best bet in trying to be a good dominant is to be a good dominant.

< Message edited by petitespot -- 10/7/2013 3:16:10 AM >

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 4:13:02 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

I don't submit to her. I let her become a wiser person by giving her full rein when she demands to enforce a critical mistake. As long as she doesn't pull the whole corporation down, I'm good with that.

You *let* her? Really? Your bosses must be different from mine. Mine expect me to follow orders, or get fired. That you can't see the similarities in the relationships is . . .interesting.

There appears to be a huge misunderstanding of what it meant for a potential dom to 'submit' back then. It wasn't a two hour session where someone tried out a flogger on them, it was months of actual training to be a submissive. I know people who went through that, and each of them found they had a submissive side, and learned the mental and emotional components of being a sub.

I know there will be those who don't believe this, or don't believe it would have happened to them. Whatever, do what you want with this information.

I also find it interesting that the terms master and dom are being used interchangeably. They are not the same thing to me. A Master or Mistress in my mind has a wealth of knowledge and experience that the average dominant does not possess.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 8:03:32 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I couldn't submit to someone who had previously been submissive in a BDSM sense. My libido just says 'no'. Submission, for me, is the pinnacle of sexual expression. I need someone who thinks the same way about their Dominance, and simply doesn't doubt it, or feel the need to submit to others.

A person who has submitted before does not need to be in doubt about the dominance, in many cases rather the opposite. The have tried, and know what they want.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 8:09:06 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petitespot

Doing all of the physical things isn't ever going to give you a clue about what goes through our minds when we experience those things.

It may not be the physical stuff.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 8:13:57 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I also find it interesting that the terms master and dom are being used interchangeably. They are not the same thing to me. A Master or Mistress in my mind has a wealth of knowledge and experience that the average dominant does not possess.

To start on labels would only confuse the issue as I see it.

I do not agree with your definition of submission in daily life meaning obedience to a boss or simply doing your job. A desk nurse is not submitting to the doctor for instance, just doing his or her job. As I see the word, in daily life submission would mean something imposed as well as involuntary - and your job hopefully isn't that - while in BDSM (fill in your own terms here) it is chosen.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 12:02:47 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I never said that was my definition, I said there were corollaries between the boss/employee relationship and the dom/sub one. In both instances a person submits to a higher authority, either b/c they will receive a paycheck, or for other rewards, which may very well be emotional ones.

There have been some who say I could never sub to a person who subbed to someone else, and I was pointing out that we all do that to some extent in our lives. The huge difference is, when you sub to your boss, it probably won't turn you on. Certainly the rewards are different. But it both cases it is a choice. I choose to work for boss x to get a paycheck, or I don't. If I don't I will go hungry unless I find another boss willing to pay me.

When you say the nurse is not subbing to the doctor just doing their job, a huge part of their job is doing what the doc says. If they are unsure what to do, they call the doc. The doc is the authority. That's like saying subs don't do as they are told, they just do their sub job.

Sure, some need less telling than others, just as some nurses will need less oversight than others. The nurse agrees to a position of subordination in order to earn a paycheck. The sub agrees to a position of subordination in order to get <fill in the blank here> since what inspires one sub will not inspire another.

I find the corollaries obvious, but I can accept others do not.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 1:05:53 PM

MAINEiacMISTRESS

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This is very close to how I feel. Just because a Dominant is willing to submit and experience an activity doesn't mean they will UNDERSTAND what an actual submissive person would FEEL from the same situation (We are WIRED different, for one thing). Even among submissives the resulting FEELING will vary greatly from one sub to another. What one submissive would find pleasurable, another sub might be traumatized by. For instance, some LOVE humiliation, whilst others cannot tolerate it and the Trust would be destroyed if attempted.

With that in mind, it's also very possible that a Dominant who has spent time as a submissive might EXPECT a submissive to endure things they themselves have in the past...thinking, "I endured it, so can you," with possibly DISASTROUS results. I wonder if some of the abusive "dominants" out there actually are the result of them following this route.

I can understand Dominant-Dominant friends helping each other out or one mentoring the other in proper SAFE TECHNIQUE of a device, such as how to aim a flogger or safely do fireplay, so they can understand how easy it is to hurt someone badly if done improperly (and this could be done WITHOUT submission)...but the mentality that a Dominant MUST start out as a submissive, and submit to being tied up? "tortured"? WTF? It's very hard for Me to even follow orders from an employer or teacher. If I see a better way to do something that's how I do it. That's why I've been a business owner since very young.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SurrenderForMe

Yes.

Lady Pact said it very well and so did others. Yes, submitting may let you experience what a sub experiences. But it doesn't make you feel what they feel. Empathy is enhanced when you share experiences, but not if the experience is good for one and bad for another.

I can take a lot of pain. I hate it. I used to religiously test out new sensations on myself out of curiosity, residual peer pressure and prudence. I even had someone hit me once. At the time he was a friend. After, I could never see or think of him without feeling negative. He is a distant memory because of that, through no fault of his own.

That wasn't d/s so much, but it was an example in BDSM that fit experiencing the other side. I am not a lesser dominant because submitting would damage me. I am not submissive and can't experience submission the way a submissive can.

I and everyone else has someone or something they submit to in the day to day world, that does not help me understand the mindset that makes someone submissive. I just know that when there is reciprocal attraction, the pieces fit like a lock and key and I don't care which is lock and which is key. Isn't that the point?

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 4:41:20 PM

SerWhiteTiger

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Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that it's not necessary and I don't really want to. I had gotten the adrenaline/endorphin rush from a light caning in a demo and thought that, although I didn't really like it, experiencing more of it would make me a better Dom. But that's not necessarily true. It might actually just make me worse. Better to simply be who I am and be as aware as I can of my sub while understanding that empathy can only tell me so much about how she's feeling.

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 6:42:49 PM

BurntKitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SerWhiteTiger

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that it's not necessary and I don't really want to. I had gotten the adrenaline/endorphin rush from a light caning in a demo and thought that, although I didn't really like it, experiencing more of it would make me a better Dom. But that's not necessarily true. It might actually just make me worse. Better to simply be who I am and be as aware as I can of my sub while understanding that empathy can only tell me so much about how she's feeling.

I'm going to blow your mind further.

Being caned or flogged isn't submission. It's bottoming. I'm a sadomasochist with a leaning toward the maso side. OK, that's a lie. I'm flat out a pain loving maso. (If asked to, I do enjoy caning & flogging someone, but I much prefer receiving the sensations.)

With the above being said, I'm not into d/s in the least. I found another person who's not into d/s but loves whacking & thwacking me. He's a carpenter and makes his own paddles and various other creative ouchie things he uses on me. We're a good pair that way.

Just to be clear- not all masos are submissive, not all sadists are dominant. And vice versa.

And now back to the Jets game. (I said I was a masochist, didn't I?)

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RE: Can a Dom who can't submit ever be a Master? - 10/7/2013 6:44:29 PM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntKitty

And now back to the Jets game. (I said I was a masochist, didn't I?)

What are you talking about? The Jets are stomping Atlanta.

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