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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 4:53:56 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Hard data exposing these religious beliefs as nothing more than superstitious flimflam

That's quite a leap--of faith?--from any of the sources you cited.

I'm suspecting that you misunderstood my use of the pronoun "these". Our military has picked up some particularly kooky beliefs about the power of religion to prevent mental illness. Those are the religious beliefs which I'm referring to.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 5:02:03 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Hard data exposing these religious beliefs as nothing more than superstitious flimflam has real world career effecting implications.

What, specifically, are "these" religious beliefs to which you're referring?

K.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 5:03:09 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

I'm suspecting that you misunderstood my use of the pronoun "these". Our military has picked up some particularly kooky beliefs about the power of religion to prevent mental illness. Those are the religious beliefs which I'm referring to.

Where did the study you cited address any of the points raised in the HuffPo opinion piece?

And is the article on the study worth the $45 to read? I'm still a bit tempted.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 8:52:02 PM

NoBimbosAllowed

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ThisHereBoi: in the flavah of this here thread, one must draw the destinction between "Faith" and "Religion". Any dipshit can create a religions, and in fact, they need not have faith in anything to do so.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 10:35:01 PM

TigressLily

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What a profound observation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed

one must draw the destinction between "Faith" and "Religion".

"O ye of little faith" was directed at those who considered themselves religious - among whom were zealots - not to atheists & agnostics.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 10:46:13 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

This was a prospective study in other words it's designed in such a way to avoid being skewed by confounding factors like this. This study found that the small benefit some studies have show for religion comes from the depressed dropping out of religion and that religion does not help depression.

Excuse me? Neither the page you linked in the OP nor the study it was reporting say anything whatsoever about the benefits found in other research being due to the depressed dropping out. I posted that study, and you have me hidden.

You wouldn't be a peeper, would you?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/5/2013 10:51:26 PM >

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 10:50:04 PM

Kirata

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~ FR ~

Another longitudinal study, this one from 2012.

Method: Participants were 114 adult offspring of depressed and nondepressed parents, followed longitudinally. The analysis covers the period from the 10-year to the 20-year follow-up assessments. Diagnosis was assessed with the Schedule for Affective Disorders and Schizophrenia–Lifetime Version. Religiosity measures included personal importance of religion or spirituality, frequency of attendance at religious services, and denomination (all participants were Catholic or Protestant). In a logistic regression analysis, major depression at 20 years was used as the outcome measure and the three religiosity variables at 10 years as predictors.

Results: Offspring who reported at year 10 that religion or spirituality was highly important to them had about one-fourth the risk of experiencing major depression between years 10 and 20 compared with other participants. Religious attendance and denomination did not significantly predict this outcome. The effect was most pronounced among offspring at high risk for depression by virtue of having a depressed parent; in this group, those who reported a high importance of religion or spirituality had about one-tenth the risk of experiencing major depression between years 10 and 20 compared with those who did not. The protective effect was found primarily against recurrence rather than onset of depression.

Conclusions: A high self-report rating of the importance of religion or spirituality may have a protective effect against recurrence of depression, particularly in adults with a history of parental depression.

Source: American Journal of Psychiatry

K.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 10:53:56 PM

NoBimbosAllowed

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""O ye of little faith" was directed at those who considered themselves religious - among whom were zealots - not to atheists & agnostics."

The snark falls waterless and empty to the floor, if you were being sarcastic. atheists and agnogs can create creeds, ala L. Ron Hubbard, so NO.

Also, before flapping them gums for the sake of such a sentence, bear in mind MANY people who never believed in any Abrahamic Truth or Covenant and whom quietly admit to believing in nothing but what they can touch, buy and spend OFTEN wear the cloth or enter the cloisters, because of the BENEFITS, and this goes back to the days of Machiavelli and the people whom imprisoned him.

It also applies to Fundamentalists, Hippy-ass Neo Pagans and more than a few fans of Mr. Cox, a delightful scientist on the Infinite Monkey Cage.

< Message edited by NoBimbosAllowed -- 10/5/2013 10:54:17 PM >

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Post #: 48

RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 10:57:25 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Hard data exposing these religious beliefs as nothing more than superstitious flimflam has real world career effecting implications.

What, specifically, are "these" religious beliefs to which you're referring?

Withdrawn. I missed your clarification.

K.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/5/2013 11:06:11 PM

TigressLily

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No snark, man. I was being totally sincere and was speaking within a historical context as much as philosophical/theological/ideological. Within that framework of the Graeco-Roman world, including Asia Minor, the Roman Empire, and among the Hebrews in Palestine, atheism & agnosticism didn't exist in any known form. Back then, it wasn't uncommon to worship at many different temples and to be polytheistic in order to hedge one's bets. For crying out loud, it was mandatory for Caesar himself to be worshipped as a god. More than controversial in that day & age for Jesus to openly pronounce, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's."

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 6:25:19 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

BUt a lot of depression stems from self pity and self concentration and lack of motivation to change.

What's your source for this?

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.
I have 4 main sources I receive information. The Bible, prayer, a growing living church with a anointed minister mastering in religious studies, and the everyday teachings of this anointed woman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqct_EACsoI This is about depression.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 6:41:09 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

I have 4 main sources I receive information. The Bible, prayer, a growing living church with a anointed minister mastering in religious studies, and the everyday teachings of this anointed woman.

I understand that these may be helpful sources of spiritual guidance, but I don't see any of them as a factual source for the scientific/medical question of what causes the illness of depression.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 8:16:46 AM

littlewonder

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There's a difference between depression and clinical depression. The kind your video speaks about is NOT clinical depression which is not going to be cured by just changing your thoughts. Yeah, it can help but it is NOT a cure.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 3:32:51 PM

Kirata

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~ FR ~

To my thinking, it seems extraordinarily odd that virtually none of these studies of religiousity and religious belief make any attempt to determine what the subjects actually believe. Do they believe in fearful deity who is capricious and given to fits of ill-temper? Do they believe in a fundamental goodness that rights all wrongs? Or what exactly?

It seems to me that the nature of a person's beliefs would be the critical factor in the effect those beliefs might be expected to have, not simply whether they or not they "believe" in something otherwise undefined.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/6/2013 3:35:40 PM >

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 3:39:51 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Within that framework of the Graeco-Roman world, including Asia Minor, the Roman Empire, and among the Hebrews in Palestine, atheism & agnosticism didn't exist in any known form.

Are we positive about that?

Two things give me pause:

(a) Wasn't atheism one of the charges hurled at Socrates?

(b) One of the psalms opens with "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 4:08:10 PM

TigressLily

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I think you and a few others misinterpreted my remark, which was not disparaging to atheists or agnostics.

1. NoBimbos pointed out drawing a distinction between 'Faith' and 'Religion.' Having faith is not the same thing as being religious, just as being spiritual isn't the same as being religious (unless you want to argue that point as well).

2. Ergo, religious people may very well be lacking in faith or undergoing a crisis of faith.

3. These same individuals may sink into depression.

4. We are not speaking of clinical depression. The study focuses on those who are depressed and those who are non-depressed.

5. The jist of my message was that Jesus was addressing religious folk when he admonishes them on multiple occasions for lacking faith. Allegorically moving a mountain [of obstacles] with the faith of a (tiny) mustard seed, for example.

6. Whether there might have been an atheist or an agnostic in the crowd is irrelevant. Whether there was a random Greek philosopher in the crowd is also irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Two things give me pause:

(a) Wasn't atheism one of the charges hurled at Socrates?

(b) One of the psalms opens with "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

Operative word here being 'fool,' operative words 'in his heart,' not in public or out in the open. There may have been organized bands of fools throughout history. Never really made a study of that.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 4:30:19 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

I think you and a few others misinterpreted my remark,

How did I misinterpret you? I simply asked if your categorical statement was true and mentioned two reasons for my reluctance to take it on face value.

quote:

which was not disparaging to atheists or agnostics.

I didn't say it was.

quote:

We are not speaking of clinical depression. The study focuses on those who are depressed and those who are non-depressed.

The study abstract says "DSM-IV diagnosis of major depression was made using the Composite International Diagnostic Interview (CIDI)." That's not clinical depression?

quote:

Allegorically moving a mountain [of obstacles] with the faith of a (tiny) mustard seed, for example.

That was in this morning's Gospel.

quote:

Whether there might have been an atheist or an agnostic in the crowd is irrelevant. Whether there was a random Greek philosopher in the crowd is also irrelevant.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not referring to shouts from a crowd, but to legal charges that were serious enough to earn Socrates a death sentence.

quote:

Operative word here being 'fool,' operative words 'in his heart,' not in public or out in the open. There may have been organized bands of fools throughout history. Never really made a study of that.

If disbelief was enough of an issue to make it into the psalms, I have a hard time believing that it "didn't exist in any known form" among the Hebrews.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 4:42:17 PM

TigressLily

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You're missing the whole point, dude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There's a difference between depression and clinical depression. The kind your video speaks about is NOT clinical depression which is not going to be cured by just changing your thoughts. Yeah, it can help but it is NOT a cure.

I'll go with what lw says any day over someone who hasn't read this study in its entirety.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

And is the article on the study worth the $45 to read? I'm still a bit tempted.

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 5:11:09 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

You're missing the whole point, dude.

I'm genuinely curious: What point am I missing?

quote:

I'll go with what lw says any day over someone who hasn't read this study in its entirety.

I'm a great fan of lw and agree with the point she made here. So I'm not quite sure why you're throwing her in my face. I will note that she didn't say whether she'd been able to read the whole article. For that matter, have you?

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RE: religion may cause depression - 10/6/2013 8:17:22 PM

NoBimbosAllowed

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"No snark, man. I was being totally sincere and was speaking within a historical context as much as philosophical/theological/ideological. Within that framework of the Graeco-Roman world, including Asia Minor, the Roman Empire, and among the Hebrews in Palestine, atheism & agnosticism didn't exist in any known form. Back then, it wasn't uncommon to worship at many different temples and to be polytheistic in order to hedge one's bets. For crying out loud, it was mandatory for Caesar himself to be worshipped as a god. More than controversial in that day & age for Jesus to openly pronounce, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's." "

yes, I get that, but the length and breadth of both Faith and Religion are not linited to these examples above, which is why J. Campbell's crap falls down. You've limited your references to groups that beilieve in, and moreover FAVOUR AND PREFER, a linear timeline. A chronology of existance than runs from 'point A to point B and then to point C'.

More than a few belief systems DID NOT fall into that purview. People who do NOT adhere to basic bargain-basement linear existance to NOT think the same way or structure their metaphysical lives the same way as linear people do. Caeser hired many mercenaries who's metaphysical leaders thought caesar's non-corporeal beliefs were both childish and mad. and LIMITED.

religion is not limited to whatever religions are considered 'important' to 35 out of 50 states in the Union of the USA. Nor are they limited to whatever conveniently fits into a select group of a FEW chapters in history beginning with what amounts to the precursors of the 'main religions' of today.

That would be as nearsighted as limiting "Christendom" to a bunch of millennialists and Jim Jones.

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