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RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:01:11 PM

Taylore

Posts: 121
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

We have a running bit going where I keep teasing her about getting a genital piercing. Part of the ongoing discussion involves taking her down to the piercing shop for an inspection of what can be done. She does not want a piercing and is dreading the inspection, but her answer is "Yes Sir".

When this slave first came to Texas, Master informed me that I was to get my clit pierced. I begged, cried and pleaded for a month for him not to do it; all to no avail. Now, it pleases me to see the pride on Master's face when he looks at it.

quote:

In my situation, alandra and kyra do not have limit lists. They do have the expectation that I will not Harm their Well-Being. It is not my final choice of what will or will not Harm their Well-Being. If at any time they consider anything to be of permanent or long-term harm then it will not be done. My girls have the following Directive that is the highest priority of all instructions or orders that I have given them.

"the slave has the responsibility to ensure their Well-Being to the best of their ability. If the slave is of the opinion that their Well-Being is at risk, they must advise the Master as quickly as possible"

LOL, this slave actually just asked Master if he still had the list I made out. He said he tore it up the day after.

It was his thinking that because this was my first real relationship of this kind that my writing such a thing would make ME feel better. LOL
I do however, have a written letter that Master gave to me the day I arrived in Texas. In it he states ' At no time, ever, in our relationship, will I ever force you to something that you feel is morally, or ethically wrong. If at anytime, you feel that such a thing has happened, you are to state so immediatly. In addition to this, I promise you that for as long as we remain in this relationship, I will uphold all the promises that I made to you from the first day I met you and on. If you feel, at any time, that I have breached a promise, you have the responsiblity to say so, and the unquestioned right to end this relationship."

quote:

BTW. I agree... thou I love alot of things about kyra physically.... her eyes are my favorite!

They are so expressive and deep Sir

_____________________________

Taylore

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 21

RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:02:44 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
The questions were rhetorical in nature

quote:

You actually knew her Knight..

is not a rhetorical question. It's a statement. An inaccurate statement. It's been corrected.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 22

RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:09:11 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

I have no limits with Master...but....that no limits came after finding out that he had similar ideals as me and after assessing he was a sane individual.

That being said....the thoughts that arise for me around this issue are...desperate, unbalanced individuals who don't have their shit together shouldnt be playing around with Master/slave relationships. Who is there to police that though? No one.....so I can see that kinda thing happening again and again.

I dont see the "dominant" party as more to blame than the submissive. They are both screwed up.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 23

RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:13:33 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

It goes back to being limited in who one would submit to. One would do well to exercise great discretion before deciding to give oneself over without limits. The problem isn't the "no limit" situation, it is that so many are lost, insecure, and too susceptible to believe malintents. Whether in a M/s, D/s, BDSM context or something more "vanilla" or "main stream," horrible things like this will happen.

I contend, he tells me to jump off a bridge, off I go. I would imagine there would be something pretty awful on the bridge that would harm me if I didn't jump.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 24

RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:20:49 PM

WayWardSoul

Posts: 869
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

You can have No Limits as long as what your doing only effects you. After that common sense has to step in and if it doesn't your responsible for your actions. You should pay for your actions, if you wont use your common sense and become a danger to someone that has no say in it. Her Master should be sitting right there with her, he is just as guilty as she is.

WWS

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 25

RE: The Dark Side - 7/2/2006 10:28:21 PM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline

.

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 7/2/2006 10:30:19 PM >

(in reply to Taylore)

Post #: 26

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 12:00:00 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I usuaully get extremely angry with people who do such things. I can feel sorry for her in a way; she obviously was emotionally vulnerable to this man's wishes. I am thinking she maybe was not emotionally stable enough, perhaps, to get herself to refuse. It's also possible also that she was completely clear-headed about her actions.Of course the law probably won't consider her mental state as enough to over-ride her actions. Unfortunately, that might not be enough to help her unmentionable heal...

I really think I would need to know even more about her circumstances to get myself to intelligently judge this situation - even if she was wrong to do what she did. It is a great cautionary tale, KoM.

I am still convinced that Andrea Yates (the woman in Texas who drowned her 5 children)was insane - I listen to her case and can only think: How could anyone think this woman was in her right mind? Where the _ell was her husband? Didn't he notice she was slowly metally deteriorating? Yes, she is still a murderer - but I strongly doubt she was sane at the time she did that.

Still, it seems many think she should just get the death penalty. Personally, I think she's going to suffer "enough" being in prison for the rest of her life. She knows what she did, now that she is on medication consistently, and she has to live with it - every single day.

I tend to think that Top should be headed for prison - it would be interesting to be a "fly on the wall" when it was happening, wouldn't it? Prisons sometimes don't offer counselling to inmates - too, bad, because I think he might benefit from having some. It might help, it might not.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/3/2006 12:56:21 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 27

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 4:18:25 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

In response to the underlying question of breaking the cycle, beyond people sharing their own experiences and having educational forums, i am not sure what we either as single human beings or the larger we as a BDSM community can do.

There is a lot of truth in what Bita said, each person must heal on their own, only they can make the decision to heal so that they are not going to be continual victims of the predators in this world.

Maybe hearing about others experiences and seeing whole (or relatively whole) people in the lifestyle will help them start on that path. And i strongly believe that it is part of my responsibility as a human to help to the degree that i can (also as someone who has been through trauma and as worked to get past it), but beyond that, there is not much that i see that we can control.

There will always be predators in this world, there will always be people who for one reason or another have been so wounded by life that they are easy prey to those predators. i wish that were not the case.

To try to solve the whole problem, would end up with some Big Brother looking over our shoulders, so for me, it comes down to individual responsibility to speak to the ones that i see who are vulnerable and to try to help them see that there is help.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 28

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 5:26:21 AM

Kree

Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

I feel there are many facets to this type situation. As some have posted, those who are in this life should have the responsibility to try to guide others by example. I honestly do not see this as a situation where the lifestyle should be mentioned. We are talking about a desperate for attention female, with a seemingly on-line relationship, being used by a pedophile. Perhaps some will argue, but I do not see that as a BDSM combination.

I watch with interest when people sit in chat rooms and do the "I will do anything", "I have no limits because I am a slave", routines. I find that laughable, but also dangerous. Yes, I know that limits are a shared responsibility, but one of the things people fail to see is that absolutes like that are viewed by people just beginning their explorations. They do not know/understand that IF those people are real, they and their Master have discussed hard/no way Jose' limits. When questioned, they get defensive if they are online only, and/or embarrassed, if real life, when backed into a corner about the realities of limits. Thankfully, some that are real life will then explain THEIR definition of "no limits", which gives the beginning submissive a basis in reality.

After watching a little group of "do anythings" try to outdo each other for about 30 minutes, they began a slave vs submissive diatribe. "I am a slave, so understand a slave has no limits." Then, " I am a submissive, but I will do anything for him" became the answering mantra. I finally asked if they knew one difference between a submissive and a slave. They were all ears and ready to "proclaim". I told them that when a Master turns to his submissive and whispers, " I will be right back, I must urinate", the submissive says... "I will be here for you when you return, Master".... the slave says, " Do not get up, Master, I will relieve you." The result was hilarious... the "do anythings" totally freaked, screaming "ewwwwwwwwww" over and over. Yes, it was fun offering them a little mind-fuck that really isnt that extreme an example, but the positive thing was the two messages I got from new submissives who had become very concerned that they a) did not really uinderstand limits, b) were concerned that they did not belong in this world because they knew there were things they would not do, and c) had begun to assume they would have to violate their core values if they pursued their leanings. To me, that is where we should focus any energies we wish to expend in the furthering of this lifestyle. Education for those who make outlandish claims and helping those learning to understand that, intentionally or not, bullshit does get spread around.

_____________________________

Author of "Nytewhispers"

Power whispers, it has no reason to yell

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 29

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 5:45:47 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

"the slave has the responsibility to ensure their Well-Being to the best of their ability. If the slave is of the opinion that their Well-Being is at risk, they must advise the Master as quickly as possible"

This is a perfect statement and pretty much what i believe even though we have never had it be a set directive. Lol, my pair are usually the ones telling me to be more careful with myself.

The woman needs help, but i also think she should serve time and be permanently separated from her child.

And i realize i am about to start a flame war with my next statement but i have zero tolerance for child abuse; she should have to agree to sterilization before being released from prison. Am i being a bitch? Guess i am, but stopping child abusers from breeding their own victims is one way to break the cycle.

I am not saying everyone who has been abused should be sterilized; some people who were abused as children grow up to be better more perceptive parents for it thus breaking the cycle. But those who continue the cycle need to be stopped.

I am one of those horrible people who would take adult users of the wee folk and let my sadistic side have a party. Yes we should try and rehabilitate them, but if this fails; well then feeding them a sliver at a time to piranhas while they watched with their eyelids surgically removed so they could not close their eyes seems like a good start, we could go from there............

Nothing on the face of this planet is more sacred than the innocence of a child.

No responsibility outweighs that of the human race to protect and nurture it's young.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 30

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:12:01 AM

gardenbluebird

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

As one whose mother allowed abuse to happen I hold her more responsible than the man who actually did the abuse. Men like that are sick bastards who deserve to be castrated and thrown in prison forever. However, the betrayal of a mother is even more onerous. The parent actually loves the child (or at least is supposed to) and to allow or perpetuate abuse against ones own child is a failure of the greatest kind. It is also more damaging to the child. To be hurt by a stranger or acquaintence is one thing, to be hurt by the very person who is supposed to nurture and protect is entirely another.

As you can tell, I'm only slightly opinionated on this matter.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 31

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:12:36 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

G'day KoM,

Good to see this being discussed here and now.... If I meet a slave who states no limits, my first action is to ask her to qualift her statement. If she then states that he Master sets her limits, I know where she is comming from. If on the other hand she simply says that she has no limits at all, I musy then decide if it is appropriate and if I have the time to spend trying to educate her in some basic common sence safety measures. (Always depending if she is receptive to any form of information that is).

I have personally only been involved with one woman who really had no limits. However this had nothing todo with the D/s, M/s, Gorean Lifestyles or BDSM.. Another culture and she was being honourable according to her ways when she placed her body and life in my hands to do with as I chose....Another story and not pertaining to this thread.....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 32

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:19:00 AM

subjected2006

Posts: 248
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline

if he abused the child he was abusing the mother too..and for someone in this lifestyle to fail understand the invisible bindings that abuse victims are bound with is symptomatic of these boards...

_____________________________

a rose is a rose..

(in reply to gardenbluebird)

Post #: 33

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:39:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Along with what Owned said, because she said a lot of what I believe, I'll add that the point is in taking responsibility for what we consent to. So many people use "no limits" the same way they use "no safewords"- as a romantic symbol of their intimacy. This IMO is dangerous. You don't choose and disregard limits because your heart goes pitter-pat.

I didn't realize Crappy would get so twisted about my acceptance of losing my clitoris (trust me, accepting it wasn't an easy choice for myself either). But it wasn't something that I just accepted in the heat of passion, or was afraid of losing someone if I didn't. It was a serious choice that we went over for a long time. It wasn't negotiated at all in the sense that I knew that if I accepted being owned, that I accepted this with it, no question or possible remittance. But ultimately I decided that removing my clitoris within slavery to him would not go against who I am.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 34

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:40:20 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

Oh come on. Did I just read this thing right? This was an online Master/slave relationship? Fear of abandonment??? What abandonment exactly? Fear of not getting any more emails from him...no more IM conversations?

No limits is a term that when I see it I view it as a very clear indicator that I am not dealing with a rational human being who understands the implication of their words.

As for blaming your actions on past abuse or past anything for that matter...I'm sorry but at the moment the light bulb clicked on and you could see that what you have been through is abuse or just plain screwed up....YOU then have the responsiblity from that moment forward to get whatever help it is that you need to move forward from it and not let it spill all over other people in your life. I am sick to death of hearing "poor little abused me" used as an excuse to go through life poisoning the lives of others. None of us had it perfect. There are no non-dysfunctional families....just varying degrees of dysfunction. That doesn't give us the "right" to use that dysfunction as a means of absolution of responsibility of our own transgressions.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 35

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:48:49 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

You often here in the lifestyle comment like;

"I Have No Limits"

"I Will Do Anything For Him"

I ask you to read this; before you continue reading the rest of my post and other posts

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=051d6ea3-1da0-4dad-a540-6f8ce8344885&k=94473

A couple thoughts to share. I have met this person. I know many that know this person or have met this person.

She had No Limits! She Did Anything For Him!

So the question...... Does "No Limits" mean NO Limits... Does "Do Anything" mean ANYTHING"?

What are your thoughts? What additional thoughts do you have to share?

Hello KoM,

On the question of *limits*....I don't have them.......but frankly, I have neither the patience nor time, to state over and over common sense factors such as... * this is within my relationship with someone that I have known for a long, long time*.

I'm not the type of person to throw my life, myself and my children at someone totally unsuitable, which isn't to say that I haven't made some dodgy choices during the course of my life.

There are vulnerable and impressionable folk and sorrowful situations arise, regardless of whether it's *attached* to bdsm.

This is a discussion forum.....I am not an educator....I cannot guide, nor can I assume responsibility for other's that read my posts.

There is always the question of the *wider world* and the *community*......but my responsibility is to myself, my sproglets and my *backyard* ....Making sure that all is well in my immediate *herb garden* is the only impact I can have on the world and one I take seriously.

Having said that .........if I'm asked, questioned or pressed further, I will always explain further.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 36

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 6:57:17 AM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

So the question...... Does "No Limits" mean NO Limits... Does "Do Anything" mean ANYTHING"?

What are your thoughts? What additional thoughts do you have to share?

Rule #1 should be "protect the property" and doing something that is going to harm you/ your family/ your psyche is not protecting the property.

When I hear rules like "obedience at all costs" it's a red flag for me. This is not a rational, legitimate (to my mind) dominant. RUN LIKE HELL if a dominant speaks like this because they have significantly further to go than you do.

Of course I usually pass the "No limits" subs by for the very same reason. Total lack of rational thought does not a good submissive make.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 37

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 7:09:43 AM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

On the question of *limits*....I don't have them.......but frankly, I have neither the patience nor time, to state over and over common sense factors such as... * this is within my relationship with someone that I have known for a long, long time*.

I'm not the type of person to throw my life, myself and my children at someone totally unsuitable[/font][/size][/color]

I very much appreciate your perspective and agree.
It seems to me that people who make grave mistakes under the orders of their dominant are probably likely to make grave mistakes on their own...including placing their well-being in the hands of a person who is not worthy or capable of handling that responsibility.
This person obviously has some very deep and real issues surrounding love and belonging. I am deeply sorry for the child involved.
It is a shame that the only cultural references most people have to D/s are stories like this one, where some unbalanced and irresponsible adults who happen to be kinky commit a crime against an innocent.
KOM, thank you for raising this subject for reflection and for the intention and spirit of the OP.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 38

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 7:28:40 AM

denika

Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

From a new persons perspective setting limits can be difficult. I went to my first play party with no clue what to expect, heck my parents never even spanked me *s* What I saw I liked, I wanted to experience it and lucky for me the person I was drawn to the most was also the heaviest player by most standards and also the safest, good thing to.
I am a smart woman, at least I like to think so. I make life or death desiscions on the job. But standing there watching it was easy for me to let down my guard and say I don't know what my boundries are. To the wrong person that could have been very bad. Self preservation is a natural instict but hard to protect yourself if you are tied up.
One of the first long conversations I had with Knight was about this lady and about understanding choices. Aside from the basics-no scat-no kids-no dead things-nothing that will land myself or a loved one in jail I'm still trying to understand my own boundries. For the past year that I played as Knights bottom I trusted Him when to say what was enough since I will push myself beyond my limits to try and please others, not healthy but I know I do it. I want to see how far I can go before I can't take anymore. I know with all my being He will hurt me but never harm me and that made me feel safe.

When you are new we want to try everything, we want to feel like we belong and I think that is where alot of common sense gets thrown out the window. "if I say I have no limits he will keep me" no he/she might maim or kill you.

I was very lucky that the first person I turned too was who He was, I could see myself getting into a dangerous situation. Rob is usually my voice of reason but when I went to that first play party he was several hundred miles away and I was the guest of strangers. I felt a bit like a little fish in a pirahna tank waving a steak in the air asking wordlessly 'anyone want a bite'

denika

(in reply to MizSuz)

Post #: 39

RE: The Dark Side - 7/3/2006 7:42:38 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Was Amayos charged as an accomplice?

This situation makes me wonder how many Doms construct "proof of love" scenarios for subs.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 40

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