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RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:12:53 PM   
kdsub


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Vince I thought you were different than Tweak... It is my opinion she believes every criticism of Iran is support for Israel. This is not true with me anyway and I hope you look at my posts with this in mind.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/15/2013 5:13:32 PM >


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RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:19:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince you keep missing the point...Please tell me Iran's position on Israel... Please tell me why you think it is ok or fair for Iran to possess a nuclear weapon... just because Israel may have one or the US has and used one in the past.
I want no country to have nuclear weapons and certainly no more.

Butch

Asked and answered. But to be specific, Iran has the right to develop existential defenses just as Israel does. Iranians observed the United States invade its neighbor without justifications and has since weathered a continuing stream of threats from the West beginning in 2003 when GW Bush designated Iran as a member of the Axis of EVIL, clearly an apocalyptic reference. Using the same rhetoric Reagan employed against the Soviet Union, Bush elevated a geopolitical issue into a theological Armageddon. And folks on this thread are resigned to accepting the familiar old war propaganda and commence the killing on so flimsy an excuse. Some never learn. They are so easily persuaded by the beat of the war drums. So quick to form up ranks and march to war. Good Christian soldiers. Sad, really.

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RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:20:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince I thought you were different than Tweak... It is my opinion she believes every criticism of Iran is support for Israel. This is not true with me anyway and I hope you look at my posts with this in mind.

Butch

I do not look at your posts as support for Israel, Butch. I am just concerned at how easily we are all lead to war.

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RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:25:04 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Iran has the right to develop existential defenses just as Israel does


Nuclear capabilities are not necessary to defend itself from Israel...You do not know I do not know if Israel has a weapon. Personally I don't believe they do but want the Iran's of this world to think they do.

But even if they do Israel has made NO threats against Iran... can you say the same about Iran?

And say they have.... does the world really need another nutcase nuclear power?.

How far are you willing to go? How many countries do you think need to have nuclear bombs for protection... 10...20...50? Don't you see how this will lead to disaster and must be stopped NOW before it gets even more out of hand?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/15/2013 5:28:26 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:28:36 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Politesub I think you are missing my point... I am not blaming anyone for appeasing Hitler... I just do not want the same thing to happen with Iran... and I do not think it will because of our basic differences in governance... therefore there will be no détente between the US and Iran as Tweak wishes.

And I am not absolving the US part in the type of government that exists in Iran today either. But... the past is no excuse to allow an unstable radical government to have to power to kill millions at the flip of a switch. I do not care how arrogant that sounds it is the truth.

Butch



Points taken Butch.

Iran wont start a nuclear attack, it would be suicide. The West did nothing about Pakistan, India, China, Russia or North Korea..... Remind me how many nuclear attacks this led to ?

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RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:34:03 PM   
kdsub


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Politesub I don't think Iran would for the very reason you have described...but look at how unstable these governments are... Do you really want to take the chance that someone could go nuts and press the button? As far as Korea is concerned... we do not know what will happen in the future...or what will happen with India and Pakistan. We need to stop this now...and if that means starting with Iran then I am all for it.

We need to restart nuclear disarrangement again on the world scale as well.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:43:48 PM   
kdsub


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I understand that Vince... I was against Iraq when it was not popular. I just believe some things are worth going to war for and this is one but only as a last resort.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:48:21 PM   
Politesub53


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Butch....... first Russia then America and the UK got involved with Afghanistan some 30 odd years ago, its still going on and will do so once we leave. Bush and Blair have left Iraq in a far worse state than it was before. What do you think will happen if America decides to depose the current Iranian leadership, other than another shitfest left unfinished.

Why is Iran anyworse than a dozen or so other nations, including some of the despots we prop up ? The whole problem wont get sorted in any way shape or form until Isreal leaves the occupied territories, or at the very least starts proper negotiations with the Palestinian.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Iran - 11/15/2013 5:57:45 PM   
kdsub


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Again Politesub you do not understand what I am saying...let me try again.

I do not want to depose the Iranian leadership... that is up to the people of Iran if they so choose. I only want to stop their development of nuclear weapons... if that takes destroying the nuts and bolts capability then that is ALL I want to do nothing more.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 5:01:29 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Asked and answered. But to be specific, Iran has the right to develop existential defenses just as Israel does. Iranians observed the United States invade its neighbor without justifications and has since weathered a continuing stream of threats from the West beginning in 2003 when GW Bush designated Iran as a member of the Axis of EVIL, clearly an apocalyptic reference. Using the same rhetoric Reagan employed against the Soviet Union, Bush elevated a geopolitical issue into a theological Armageddon. And folks on this thread are resigned to accepting the familiar old war propaganda and commence the killing on so flimsy an excuse. Some never learn. They are so easily persuaded by the beat of the war drums. So quick to form up ranks and march to war. Good Christian soldiers. Sad, really.


I partly agree and disagree here. The thing is, Iran has taken on a similarly hostile tone towards America since 1979. Even if it may have been a righteous grievance at the time (re: the Shah), they were saying "death to America" long before GW coined the term "Axis of Evil." So, as far as escalating rhetoric and apocalyptic references are concerned, I think both governments are equally guilty for that. I wouldn't mitigate America's responsibility here, but Iran also has to take some responsibility for the position they're currently in, too.

My main point here is that it's too little too late for our leadership to be saying "Axis of Evil" when just a few years earlier they eagerly jumped into bed with the "Axis of Evil" in order to oppose the "Evil Empire."

It seems to me that the best way to make America safe and keep the world stable is to get rid of the fuck-ups in our government. Every war America has fought since the World Wars has been to correct some previous fuck-up by our own myopic politicians incapable of thinking beyond the next election.

So, even if Iran is part of the "Axis of Evil," there's still the question whether our government is up to the task of dealing with it, considering how many times they've fucked up before.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 5:53:56 AM   
tweakabelle


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The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/16/2013 5:55:16 AM >


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 6:32:48 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.



Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 6:52:39 AM   
mnottertail


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and everybodies doing it.  Look at us, we are for peace, yet we meddle constantly and have a military budget larger than the next 12 countries combined.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 7:17:00 AM   
Phydeaux


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Which is why saying you're for peace, or saying you are for a nuclear free zone - is irrelevent.


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 7:40:22 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, but that wasnt the entire point of tweaks stuff.  And you have no proof whatsoever they are developing nuclear weapons, that ticklemeElmo aint hit the stores yet.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 10:43:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Iran has the right to develop existential defenses just as Israel does


Nuclear capabilities are not necessary to defend itself from Israel...You do not know I do not know if Israel has a weapon. Personally I don't believe they do but want the Iran's of this world to think they do.

But even if they do Israel has made NO threats against Iran... can you say the same about Iran?

And say they have.... does the world really need another nutcase nuclear power?.

How far are you willing to go? How many countries do you think need to have nuclear bombs for protection... 10...20...50? Don't you see how this will lead to disaster and must be stopped NOW before it gets even more out of hand?

Butch

You assume Iran is an irrational geopolitical player. You have bought into the neocon propaganda, Butch.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 10:47:33 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

So, even if Iran is part of the "Axis of Evil," there's still the question whether our government is up to the task of dealing with it, considering how many times they've fucked up before.

Zonie, our history would suggest otherwise. It is hard to find a time when fools and dupes were not in abundance.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 10:59:24 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.



Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.

Going to war with Iran from a fit of unfounded hysteria would be the American way.

Quoting American intelligence sources, The New York Times reports that intelligence agencies from the United States and Israel agree that Iran suspended its nuclear weapons program years ago, and that Tehran is not currently attempting to revive it. As intelNews has been reporting consistently since 2009, the overwhelming consensus in the US intelligence community is that the Iranian regime suspended all efforts to build a nuclear bomb in 2003. Furthermore, the US intelligence community maintains that the decision to turn Iran into a nuclear power has yet to be conclusively taken in Tehran. This was first outlined in the 2007 US National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), an annual report cooperatively authored by the heads of all US intelligence agencies. This consensus appears even wider after Sunday’s New York Times report, which maintains that, even though many hawkish Israeli politicians advocate aggressive action against Iran, Israel’s intelligence agency, the Mossad, is in broad agreement with the premise of the 2007 NIE. The Times cites an anonymous “former senior American intelligence official”, who says that, although Israeli intelligence planners direct “very hard questions” to their American counterparts, the “Mossad does not disagree with the US on the [Iranian] weapons program”, and that “there is not a lot of dispute between the US and Israeli intelligence communities on the facts”. Undeniably, the 2007 NIE has its detractors, including some who accuse the US intelligence community of refusing to realize “that Iran now has the capability to change the balance of power in the Gulf”. The latest report in The Times does not deny that there are “significant intelligence gaps” in Washington’s ability to understand Iran’s intentions. Iran, argues the report —correctly— is “one of the most difficult intelligence collection targets in the world”. The report quotes another former US intelligence official who describes Iran as “the hardest intelligence target there is —harder by far than North Korea”. The reason Is not only the absence of a US embassy in Tehran since the 1979 Iran hostage crisis, but also, the official says, “the [Iranian] political system, [which] is so confusing [in that] has the effect of making it difficult to determine who speaks authoritatively on what”. Still, The Times cites former and current US intelligence officials who say that “they have been throwing everything they have at the Iranian program” and strongly express confidence in the 2007 NIE. In an article published late on Sunday, the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz noted The Times report but contained no official or unofficial reaction from Tel Aviv.

Mossad, CIA, ‘agree Iran has no active nuclear weapons program’

So, what has changed to warrant the bellicose hysteria from the neocons? Only their fantasies apparently.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 1:38:26 PM   
kdsub


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Vince not irrational ....but radical ... And the way they treat their own people untrustworthy

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 2:20:16 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince not irrational ....but radical ... And the way they treat their own people untrustworthy

Butch

Radical? Not at all clear what you mean? Do they not look out for their own national self-interest like all other nations do?

And what is it about how they treat their own people that you find untrustworthy? Too general a statement, Butch. More specific, please.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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