quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Finally, do you have any cites that Mossad has advised that Iran is not building a nukes? Somehow I think if the civilized world knew it there would be no need for sanctions. So, I'll need a cite please because otherwise your unsubstantiated opinion seems rather ridiculous.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So according to tweak (and no one else) Iran doesn't want nuclear weapons - and wants a nuclear free zone.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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Yeah you`re right, I dont understand....... You want to halt the plans of the leadership but not depose the leadership. Good luck with that convoluted crap.

I don't see where it is convoluted... I don't care what the people of Iran... or any other nation on this earth want in leadership... that is up to them.

Destroying their ability to produce nuclear weapons is doable and straight forward without nation building. We can do it once... we can do it twice... we can do more times than they have money and resources to continue.

I hope next week we have an enforceable agreement and force is not needed but if not I do believe time has run out.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.

In your glee to jump on Tweaks you missed the fact she never mentioned Nuclear Weapons for Iran. Are you really suggesting the shouldnt have the option for nuclear power for energy, because I know full well you are against fossil fuel power plants.

Since you seemed to have missed it: I'll repeat.

Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.


And since you're likely to miss it again:

quote:


The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.

So according to tweak (and no one else) Iran doesn't want nuclear weapons - and wants a nuclear free zone.
And yet, here they are developing uranium for weapons. Because make no mistake - the amount of 20% enriched fuel vastly exceeds any research requirements.

Finally - where on earth do you get that I'm opposed to fossil fuel generation. Please, cite me, since you know "full well".

I suggest you go look in the Coal thread for good quotes where I argue in favor of plain old "dirty" coal and against that silly, imaginary, and impossible carbon sequestration.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I see an opinion asserted with no supporting evidence. The US is not prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. Sanctions were an effort *not* to kill based on a rational policy of trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why....why agree that the American people are being fed propaganda then when I ask where and who and why you give me a vague nonsense response. Lets get specific...lets here the propaganda and the real reason behind it.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63


Propaganda also includes lies by omission, so it can be judged by what is not being said as much as what is being said.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why....why agree that the American people are being fed propaganda then when I ask where and who and why you give me a vague nonsense response. Lets get specific...lets here the propaganda and the real reason behind it.
Butch

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why....why agree that the American people are being fed propaganda then when I ask where and who and why you give me a vague nonsense response. Lets get specific...lets here the propaganda and the real reason behind it.
Butch

I agree that the American people are being fed propaganda, because that's what politicians do. Politicians will take whatever fact they can spin to support their election or re-election, and spin the fuck out of it.

Political theater is rife with making the other side look bad and evil while this side is pure, honest, good, and angelic. Both parties do it. Both parties are guilty of being propaganda mills.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
The dark side is that Americans are prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. That is the arc of propaganda. The 'other' is made to seem irrational, barbaric, less than human, therefore unworthy to live. That is how we rationalize the madness of war.

Well stated, Vince.

I see an opinion asserted with no supporting evidence. The US is not prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. Sanctions were an effort *not* to kill based on a rational policy of trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63


Propaganda also includes lies by omission, so it can be judged by what is not being said as much as what is being said.

On this point, I wonder how many Americans are aware of the proposal to turn the ME into a nuclear weapons free zone, where the proposal comes from and why it hasn't been made a reality despite the support of almost all the governments in the region?

And if people aren't aware of it, why aren't they? It seems like an excellent solution.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Propaganda also includes lies by omission, so it can be judged by what is not being said as much as what is being said.

On this point, I wonder how many Americans are aware of the proposal to turn the ME into a nuclear weapons free zone, where the proposal comes from and why it hasn't been made a reality despite the support of almost all the governments in the region?
And if people aren't aware of it, why aren't they? It seems like an excellent solution.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Propaganda also includes lies by omission, so it can be judged by what is not being said as much as what is being said.

On this point, I wonder how many Americans are aware of the proposal to turn the ME into a nuclear weapons free zone, where the proposal comes from and why it hasn't been made a reality despite the support of almost all the governments in the region?
And if people aren't aware of it, why aren't they? It seems like an excellent solution.

Where does that proposal come from?

Who supports that proposal?

Why do they support that proposal?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
To reiterate: The idea of the Middle East becoming a nuclear weapons free zone was first mooted in the 1960s. Egypt and Iran formally proposed the idea in 1974. Virtually all the region's Govts support the idea, with the sole and notable exception of Israel, the region's only nuclear armed State.

quote:

Why do they support the idea? The region is possibly the most unstable and volatile region on the planet. The advantages of keeping such a region free of nuclear weapons seem self evident to me.

quote:

A far more pertinent question to ask is: Why doesn't the West propose this idea as the basis of a solution to the current impasse with Iran over its alleged nuclear weapons programme? It seems such an obvious solution to all the outstanding questions doesn't it?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Finally, do you have any cites that Mossad has advised that Iran is not building a nukes? Somehow I think if the civilized world knew it there would be no need for sanctions. So, I'll need a cite please because otherwise your unsubstantiated opinion seems rather ridiculous.

Here is a recent Israeli sourced report confirming my assertion:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/mossad-cia-agree-iran-has-yet-to-decide-to-build-nuclear-weapon-1.419300

Here is Israeli Defence Forces Chief of Staff Benny Gantz confirming that the IDF is of the same view
"Iran has not decided to build a nuclear bomb, says IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz. Nor does he think Tehran will go “the extra mile" to do so. The military chief’s words cut a sharp contrast with the bellicose rhetoric of PM Netanyahu."
http://rt.com/news/iran-no-nuclear-weapon-990/

All of the above has been public knowledge for a long time now. There would appear to be no doubt that my assertion, which you characterised as "ridiculous' is in fact valid. There's no need to point out who looks "ridiculous" now. That is self-evident.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The dark side is that Americans are prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. That is the arc of propaganda. The 'other' is made to seem irrational, barbaric, less than human, therefore unworthy to live. That is how we rationalize the madness of war.

Well stated, Vince.

I see an opinion asserted with no supporting evidence. The US is not prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. Sanctions were an effort *not* to kill based on a rational policy of trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

The United States first imposed sanctions against Iran in 1979 Was Iran enriching uranium in 1979? Not likely. Sanctions are a form of economic warfare.

How justified are the multiple sanctions on Iran? Dubious (from the same source)

In 2009, incoming head of the IAEA, Yukiya Amano, said there was no evidence in official IAEA documents that indicated that Iran was seeking to develop nuclear weapons,[37] and in 2013, Seyed Hossein Mousavian, former spokesman for Iran's nuclear negotiators, said that "there is no diversion of Iran's nuclear program toward weaponization", adding that, supported by over 4000 man-days of inspections, "there is no conclusive evidence that Iran has made any effort to build a nuclear bomb since 2003; and that the Iranian leadership has not yet made a political decision to build an actual weapon".[38][39]

In fact, the U.S. director of national intelligence, James Clapper, testified in March 2011 that he has a high level of confidence that Iran has not even made such a decision. [40] but also says that intelligence agencies "do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons." [40] Hans Blix, former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, currently head of Blix and Associates said, "So far Iran has not violated NPT and there is no evidence right now that suggests that Iran is producing nuclear weapons."[citation needed] He also stated "a majority of Iranians would think the enrichment part of Iran's nuclear programme is not essential."[41] In November 2011 the IAEA reported "serious concerns regarding possible military dimensions to Iran's nuclear programme" and indications that "some activities may still be ongoing."[42] In February 2013 an EU court struck down – for the second time – the legality of some of Europe’s sanctions on the biggest Iranian bank.[43]

So sanctions, an overt act of war, are based on the flimsy possibility of Iranian intentions.

Not to overlook the reports that sanctions against Iraq resulted in the death of many children from a lack of medical supplies.

quote:

Hogwash and poppycock.

You want to be a terror sponsoring pariah state. Accept that people aren't going to trade with you.

And despite your selective reporting on Iranian affairs - it is equally true that Iran has also said that under no circumstances will the negotiate away their nuclear program.

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You have given no valid reasons why how and when... calling something propaganda is easy...proving it should be easy if true. But first it depends on the definition of propaganda you are using. If it is just trying to promote a cause then we all use propaganda every day and there is nothing wrong in using it. If however you use the definition of exaggeration or spreading of false information that is something that can be proven wrong....so prove it... or at least give a valid reason for promoting a military response other than the reason given.

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As for our world view and our perception of exceptionalism... it is true. We are, as a nation, an exceptional entity on this earth...I don't give a shit who doesn't like it. There has never been a nation this powerful and influential in the history of mankind... Now if that is not exceptional than what is?