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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 2:26:08 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.



Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.

It is difficult for me to understand why you loathe peace to the extent you do. The belligerence of your posts suggest that, for you, foreign policy is not about cultivating friendly relations with other countries, nor about promoting the US's interests, or even avoiding confrontation and war but an excuse for dropping nukes on whoever it is you hate the most on any given day.

Nor is it any surprise that you advocate putting one of the region's most belligerent leaders Netanyahoo into a position of leadership on the Iran/nuclear weapons issue, even though Netanyahoo's own spooks, Mossad, advise him that the Iranians are not developing nuclear weapons. Is there a better way of guaranteeing that belligerent rhetoric gets translated into belligerent confrontation and war?

The only surprises are your apparent expectation that (1) others share your love of nuclear confrontation; and (2) that we should consider such an extreme irrational and barbaric attitude as a basis for conducting international relations.

While there isn't a lot to like about the US's Middle Eastern policies, one bright spot is that neo-con approaches such as yours have been consigned to the policy trash can. Long may they stay there.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/16/2013 2:34:41 PM >


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 2:59:53 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Iran has the right to develop existential defenses just as Israel does


Nuclear capabilities are not necessary to defend itself from Israel...You do not know I do not know if Israel has a weapon. Personally I don't believe they do but want the Iran's of this world to think they do.

But even if they do Israel has made NO threats against Iran... can you say the same about Iran?

And say they have.... does the world really need another nutcase nuclear power?.

How far are you willing to go? How many countries do you think need to have nuclear bombs for protection... 10...20...50? Don't you see how this will lead to disaster and must be stopped NOW before it gets even more out of hand?

Butch

You assume Iran is an irrational geopolitical player. You have bought into the neocon propaganda, Butch.

Iran's government has supported Hezbollah and other terrorist groups for more than 30 years. That's pretty irrational.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 3:47:33 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


You assume Iran is an irrational geopolitical player. You have bought into the neocon propaganda, Butch.

They're a theocracy.

That is, by definition, irrational.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 3:56:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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World politics is a field of rationality all of its own, HW. Theocracies, democracies, capitalists, communists - they all can (and usually do) end up playing by the same rules, founded on self defence and national assertion. IMO, on the world stage, most nations, most of the time, end up acting like very clever, very selfish, kids.

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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 4:37:59 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Again Politesub you do not understand what I am saying...let me try again.

I do not want to depose the Iranian leadership... that is up to the people of Iran if they so choose. I only want to stop their development of nuclear weapons... if that takes destroying the nuts and bolts capability then that is ALL I want to do nothing more.

Butch


Yeah you`re right, I dont understand....... You want to halt the plans of the leadership but not depose the leadership. Good luck with that convoluted crap.



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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 4:42:11 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.


In your glee to jump on Tweaks you missed the fact she never mentioned Nuclear Weapons for Iran. Are you really suggesting the shouldnt have the option for nuclear power for energy, because I know full well you are against fossil fuel power plants.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 6:14:43 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Yeah you`re right, I dont understand....... You want to halt the plans of the leadership but not depose the leadership. Good luck with that convoluted crap.


I don't see where it is convoluted... I don't care what the people of Iran... or any other nation on this earth want in leadership... that is up to them.

Destroying their ability to produce nuclear weapons is doable and straight forward without nation building. We can do it once... we can do it twice... we can do more times than they have money and resources to continue.

I hope next week we have an enforceable agreement and force is not needed but if not I do believe time has run out.

Butch

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 8:46:26 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.



Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.

It is difficult for me to understand why you loathe peace to the extent you do. The belligerence of your posts suggest that, for you, foreign policy is not about cultivating friendly relations with other countries, nor about promoting the US's interests, or even avoiding confrontation and war but an excuse for dropping nukes on whoever it is you hate the most on any given day.

Nor is it any surprise that you advocate putting one of the region's most belligerent leaders Netanyahoo into a position of leadership on the Iran/nuclear weapons issue, even though Netanyahoo's own spooks, Mossad, advise him that the Iranians are not developing nuclear weapons. Is there a better way of guaranteeing that belligerent rhetoric gets translated into belligerent confrontation and war?

The only surprises are your apparent expectation that (1) others share your love of nuclear confrontation; and (2) that we should consider such an extreme irrational and barbaric attitude as a basis for conducting international relations.

While there isn't a lot to like about the US's Middle Eastern policies, one bright spot is that neo-con approaches such as yours have been consigned to the policy trash can. Long may they stay there.


Personal attacks in the absence of facts.

I asked you to enumerate what "peace bounty would become available following resolution of the Iran-US standoff".
No reply.

I asked you what you thought our strategice interests in Iran were, and how they were advanced by peace.

You prognosticated a war. "Do you really want the current US-Iran impasse to continue indefinitely? The situation could very easily spiral out of control and result in a full scale war throughout the region."

I asked you a war between whom? No answer.

You made the fundamental assertion that diplomacy is always better than war, AND the assertion that I think that war is superior to diplomacy. Neither of which is true.

If you understood the quote, "war is diplomacy by other methods" you would understand that.

Any characterization that I loathe peace is ridiculous. Nor however do I crave peace if that peace results to the detriment of the US and its allies.

For example - this entire middle east quagmire could have been much improved if when israel had conquered and displaced the residents. Their humane decision to allow people to remain gathered no credit and only perpetuated the problem.

Finally, do you have any cites that Mossad has advised that Iran is not building a nukes? Somehow I think if the civilized world knew it there would be no need for sanctions. So, I'll need a cite please because otherwise your unsubstantiated opinion seems rather ridiculous.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 8:57:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


You assume Iran is an irrational geopolitical player. You have bought into the neocon propaganda, Butch.

They're a theocracy.

That is, by definition, irrational.

So, you would sanction an attack on a nation for its religious/political structure??? Madness! Now, who is irrational?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 9:04:32 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.


In your glee to jump on Tweaks you missed the fact she never mentioned Nuclear Weapons for Iran. Are you really suggesting the shouldnt have the option for nuclear power for energy, because I know full well you are against fossil fuel power plants.



Since you seemed to have missed it: I'll repeat.

Saying you're all in favor of a nuclear free zone and then developing nuclear weapons is like fucking for birth control.


And since you're likely to miss it again:

quote:


The Iranian Govt has long supported making the entire Middle Eastern region a nuclear weapons free zone. So do almost all the other governments in the region. It seems like an obvious solution doesn't it?

What is stopping this solution being implemented? There's one nuclear armed country in the region, which just happens to be the same country that is leading the chorus of warmongers against Iran, that refuses to sign the NPT, and won't countenance this solution.

Just as this country prefers conquering the West Bank to peace with the Palestinians, it prefers to take the region to the brink of war, and possibly further, rather than implement a fair solution to the nuclear question.


So according to tweak (and no one else) Iran doesn't want nuclear weapons - and wants a nuclear free zone.
And yet, here they are developing uranium for weapons. Because make no mistake - the amount of 20% enriched fuel vastly exceeds any research requirements.

Finally - where on earth do you get that I'm opposed to fossil fuel generation. Please, cite me, since you know "full well".

I suggest you go look in the Coal thread for good quotes where I argue in favor of plain old "dirty" coal and against that silly, imaginary, and impossible carbon sequestration.


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RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 9:14:24 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Iran's government has supported Hezbollah and other terrorist groups for more than 30 years. That's pretty irrational.

Is that sufficient premise for an American attack? Since when has irrationality become an international crime?

Secondly, assume for the moment that Iran supported Hezbollah for their own national interests. How was that irrational? We can only judge the rationality of action if we know the motives for action. I doubt we are in a position to judge.

The dark side is that Americans are prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. That is the arc of propaganda. The 'other' is made to seem irrational, barbaric, less than human, therefore unworthy to live. That is how we rationalize the madness of war.


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 9:22:24 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The dark side is that Americans are prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. That is the arc of propaganda. The 'other' is made to seem irrational, barbaric, less than human, therefore unworthy to live. That is how we rationalize the madness of war.


Well stated, Vince.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Iran - 11/16/2013 9:28:59 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The dark side is that Americans are prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. That is the arc of propaganda. The 'other' is made to seem irrational, barbaric, less than human, therefore unworthy to live. That is how we rationalize the madness of war.


Well stated, Vince.


I see an opinion asserted with no supporting evidence. The US is not prepared to kill on the basis of perceived irrationality. Sanctions were an effort *not* to kill based on a rational policy of trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

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RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 4:46:32 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So, even if Iran is part of the "Axis of Evil," there's still the question whether our government is up to the task of dealing with it, considering how many times they've fucked up before.

Zonie, our history would suggest otherwise. It is hard to find a time when fools and dupes were not in abundance.


It seems your two statements contradict each other here. What would our history suggest "otherwise" if you apparently agree that there is an abundance of fools and dupes in our government?

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RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 7:41:02 AM   
kdsub


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Just me but I do not think it is well said at all. For Vince to be correct it means we have a government today that is intentionally misleading its citizens in order to pursue war.... For what reason or for what purpose?

There is no economic reason for war with Iran or any political advantage. I believe the reasons we are stating are the truth.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 8:08:33 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Just me but I do not think it is well said at all. For Vince to be correct it means we have a government today that is intentionally misleading its citizens in order to pursue war.... For what reason or for what purpose?
There is no economic reason for war with Iran or any political advantage. I believe the reasons we are stating are the truth.
Butch


Sorry, Butch, but I do certainly believe we have a government today that will make "the other side" out to be something we oppose so it can have more support from the People. That's not limited to wars, either. The Democrats make the Republicans out to be demon spawn and Republicans make Democrats out to be demon spawn.




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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 10:58:08 AM   
kdsub


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Then tell me who in the leadership of this country today is talking war?

I am so tired of hearing about this hidden agenda... I don't hear the President advocating war. Who is...

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 4:14:33 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


You assume Iran is an irrational geopolitical player. You have bought into the neocon propaganda, Butch.

They're a theocracy.

That is, by definition, irrational.

So, you would sanction an attack on a nation for its religious/political structure??? Madness! Now, who is irrational?

How do you jump from my saying someone or thing is irrational to they should be attacked?


What the fuck have you been smoking?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 7:55:15 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Then tell me who in the leadership of this country today is talking war?
I am so tired of hearing about this hidden agenda... I don't hear the President advocating war. Who is...


Just because they aren't talking war right now doesn't mean this isn't how politicians work up support for going to war, when they do.

Did you miss my little part about it not being limited to war?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Iran - 11/17/2013 8:08:01 PM   
kdsub


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Why....why agree that the American people are being fed propaganda then when I ask where and who and why you give me a vague nonsense response. Lets get specific...lets here the propaganda and the real reason behind it.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 140
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