Zonie63
Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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ORIGINAL: kdsub
You have given no valid reasons why how and when... calling something propaganda is easy...proving it should be easy if true. But first it depends on the definition of propaganda you are using. If it is just trying to promote a cause then we all use propaganda every day and there is nothing wrong in using it. If however you use the definition of exaggeration or spreading of false information that is something that can be proven wrong....so prove it... or at least give a valid reason for promoting a military response other than the reason given.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking for. I think Vincent cited some well-known examples of when our government and politicians have lied. I think a lot of the Cold War rhetoric would qualify, as well as any statement involving the word “evil” to describe portions of the outside world (i.e. “Evil Empire,” “Axis of Evil”).
The reason why I’m suspicious of our government’s current motives in relation to Iran is because Iran has shown itself to be hostile to America ever since 1979, and yet our government has only recently decided to do something about it. If what they say about Iran is true, then they wouldn’t have traded arms for hostages, but they did. If what they say about Iran is true, then they wouldn’t have gone to war with Iran’s primary enemy in the region (Iraq).
My view is that actions speak louder than words, so if our government’s actions do not coherently match their rhetoric, then it’s pretty easy to tell that they’re spouting propaganda. We say that we support freedom and making the world safe for democracy, and yet, we’ve supported numerous regimes which are not free and not democratic. What does that tell you? Do you really need more proof?
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As for our world view and our perception of exceptionalism... it is true. We are, as a nation, an exceptional entity on this earth...I don't give a shit who doesn't like it. There has never been a nation this powerful and influential in the history of mankind... Now if that is not exceptional than what is?
A comparison declaring America to be the most powerful and influential in the history of mankind is highly subjective. I don’t see that there’s any objective truth in such a statement. I think that notions of American exceptionalism are also subjective. It doesn’t matter if anyone likes it or dislikes it; what matters is whether or not it’s true. I don’t think it is. There are other nations which are free and democratic (perhaps even more so than we are). There are other nations which are powerful.
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There have been exceptional nations in the past and there will be others in the future but right now and for the near future we will continue to be the most important country in the world. This fact does not make any one US individual better than any other human on earth but as a group comprising a nation it does make us exceptional.
I would agree that the U.S. was in a very strong and fortunate position following World War II, which (for a few decades at least) put us on top of the world – as the “leader of the free world” and (as you put it), the most important country in the world. We’re in the same spot that the British and French were 100 years ago. Nations rise and fall in power and influence; nothing is ever permanent. There was a brief period when Austria was the main influential power in Europe, but look at them today. Further back, one can see a time when the Mongols were the most powerful and feared nation on Earth, but look at Mongolia now.
I also agree that our current position in the world doesn’t make us any better either. To a large degree, we’ve been more fortunate. The early colonists found a land teeming with resources and countless acres of arable land which we slowly but surely annexed and occupied, displacing the previous inhabitants. There are some aspects of our history which haven’t been pretty and which many Americans today are not particularly proud of, so we have to put the notion of American exceptionalism in an honest and realistic perspective.
I think we Americans have a habit of embracing certain notions in order to ease our conscience and make us feel good about ourselves, but I would caution against self-delusion. “Manifest Destiny,” “American Dream,” “American Exceptionalism” are all examples of how we’ve tried to fool ourselves. Nowadays, “Manifest Destiny” is viewed with widespread scorn and derision, and for good reason. The government may lie to us, but that doesn’t mean we have to lie to ourselves. To thine ownself, be true.
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Finally there is no omission... Iran does not need to reach the continental US... we actually care about Europe and our bases in the area as well as friendly countries. And I have already stated our failure with Korea but we are talking Iran and I personally believe one nutcase with the bomb is better than two.
Iran doesn’t have a bomb yet, and there’s no proof that they’re planning to build one either. Even if they did build one, it doesn’t mean they’re going to use it. They know that if they did, there would be massive retaliation. The U.S. is also working with its allies to upgrade our missile defense systems.
I realize this thread is about Iran and not Korea, but I think there are parallels in that the reason we can’t go to war with North Korea is similar to the reason we can’t go to war with Iran: Russia and China won’t like it. I don’t think we should risk going to war with either of those major powers over Iran. The risk and potential devastation to our own country would be far greater than whatever local damage could by caused by Iran at some unforeseen time in the future.
I say let the regional powers deal with issues within their own region. Let us worry about our hemisphere, and let them worry about their hemisphere.
And, quite frankly, most of these problems we’re talking about around the world have been the result of previous failures by our own “exceptional” government. North Korea and Iran are two examples of Cold War policies gone awry. Many of our failures have been due to our own ignorance. Prior to World War II, our government knew next to nothing about Iran or Korea, so we were forced to rely on information and intel from other countries (mainly the British, who also have a somewhat unique perception of themselves and the outside world, so their information was also tainted).
With the power vacuum created by the loss of European global hegemony after World War II, America’s role became comparable to that of a substitute teacher. We backed into the role, and in all candor, I don’t think we were really cut out for this kind of thing. That’s part of the problem with the rhetoric we use, such as when we talk about being the “arsenal of democracy” and other aspects of exceptionalism which, in essence, impose certain obligations upon America and its citizenry. I think that this kind of rhetoric (propaganda) has led to a certain identity crisis about who and what we are, as a nation.
We’re not an empire, but sometimes it’s hard to tell. We like to think of ourselves as “the good guys,” and I’d like to believe that as well. I was raised to love my country in a family with strong patriotic values. I grew up with and accepted the idea that we were the leader of the free world and locked in a mortal struggle with “evil.” I also learned the ramifications of nuclear war and the kinds of dangers we were facing back then. Because of this, I wanted to learn more about our “enemies” and what made them tick. I wanted to find out what their deal was.
Over the course of my studies, both formal and informal, I eventually found that most of our “enemies” aren’t really the nutcases that our pundits and politicians make them out to be. Some may very well be diabolical and quite possibly truly evil, but not insane. They come from different societies with different values, cultures, and perceptions of the outside world. They have different morals, different political values; we may not ever see eye-to-eye on a variety of issues.
Because of this, I’ve tentatively concluded that America’s best course of action would be to stay true and consistent to our own stated principles of freedom, justice, and our democratic-republic traditions, without necessarily “reacting” to every little thing that happens in the world as if we’re the global fire department (which might be a more apt analogy than “world’s policeman”). That’s part of the problem, since we don’t seem to have any real coherent geopolitical agenda or consistent set of principles. All we do is just react to what “they” do. Among other things, it makes it easier for outside nations to manipulate our government, since they can take actions by gauging what our expected reaction will be.
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