RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (Full Version)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/19/2014 4:11:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is.


No, it's not. While I am in a relationship that involves love, I know others that have been in relationships based on D/s rather than love and have been successful.

So, just to clarify: I'm very attached and believe that love is not necessary to have a D/s relationship.



JeffBC -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/19/2014 4:36:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is.

*blinks* Uh, I happen to be in a long-term relationship and I don't think it's necessary. I think it's highly helpful to the success of a long-term relationship and highly desirable to boot, but not necessary. I happen to know of at least two long-term marriages that I'd call love-less. They're not anything I'd want any part of but they exist.



LadyPact -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/19/2014 5:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is.

So far I haven't even seen one person say they've been in a d/s or m/s relationship for over ten years and they don't love their partner at all.

I'm not exactly sure how I'm being considered unattached, either. Also, you're asking for a time comparison that is longer than the average length of a first marriage that ends in divorce. (Seven years.) Why expect kinky couples to do better than vanilla "in love" counterparts?




DesFIP -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/19/2014 7:32:04 PM)

Because that's what the op asked about, long term relationships.
And although I'm sure there are some d/s only ones that have lasted in which both parties are happy, I haven't seen anyone here on this thread chime in to state such.

I know of long term marriages where the people are joyless but I'm not including them. Success in a relationship to me includes that the people are happy, not otherwise.



FieryOpal -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/19/2014 8:56:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is.

So far I haven't even seen one person say they've been in a d/s or m/s relationship for over ten years and they don't love their partner at all.

You are so right. I can't imagine being in any sort of an LTR without love as the glue which holds it together. People don't usually get married unless they believe they are in love; one doesn't normally embark upon a loveless marriage.

In terms of the D/s lifestyle, only a (non-sexual) service-oriented dynamic can be sustained without love, and even then one should expect a certain degree of fondness for one another to develop, along with friendship. Without romantic love, or infatuation at the very minimum, I doubt a genuine D/s-M/s dynamic is sustainable for the long haul. It would remain a pseudo-D/s, much like on-line interactions infused with mostly fantasy elements. It can seem to be *real* but lacks the profundity of real life. D/s is nothing less than a serious commitment. I look at this way, Why take a half-assed journey or a half-assed approach to the commitments you make in life?



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 7:06:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is.


I'm aware that's your personal reality and philosophy, but it doesn't apply to all—not even in "vanilla" relationships, if you care to think on the subject a little deeper. For example, how many abusive relationships last more than ten years? How many last a lifetime in which "love" is little more than an excuse or a lie to control?

And that's before you even begin to consider D/s relationships and their variability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And although I'm sure there are some d/s only ones that have lasted in which both parties are happy, I haven't seen anyone here on this thread chime in to state such.


I chimed in on the previous page, did I not? I'd also caution you to avoid using entries on Collarme as conclusive evidence of any demographic in the first place.



OsideGirl -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 9:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Because that's what the op asked about, long term relationships.
I think it depends on what you consider long term and since most marriages don't last 10 years, I think that's not a correct measuring stick. I know of a few that have lasted between 2 and 5 years...which I view as long term. And another that has been going on for at least 10.


quote:

And although I'm sure there are some d/s only ones that have lasted in which both parties are happy, I haven't seen anyone here on this thread chime in to state such.
Just because there's no one on the forums that has that relationship formula doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The group in the forums isn't that large, so it's an extremely small sample group.

I think you're also assuming that the D/s relationship is the only or primary relationship. The 10+ year relationship I referenced was a poly situation where the husband is vanilla and the wife has a service only relationship with a Dominant.



LadyPact -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 11:23:02 AM)

Thank you, Oside. That was My question, too. The ten year length seemed setting the bar a bit high as the standard to consider something long term. I was with My first husband much less than ten years and that sure felt long term. (Love based, not D/s.) Especially when we had to get the divorce.

Personally, I tend to think the "in love" thing has shifted quite a bit over the last 10-15 years, at least with a lot of folks who identify as leather or M/s. There were a lot more service based type of dynamics out there than you see now. A definite shift in the percentage of folks who were the "in love" types, which has risen significantly in that period of time. Back then, there were a lot more cases of M-types that weren't nearly as emotionally attached at the romantic "in love" type of level, though it's My personal theory that s-types tend to have the greater emotional bond in such situations. It goes back to what ET was saying on post 53 regarding trust.

If people have a dynamic where the BDSM part is also involved where, for literally years where play is conducted, and trust is reaffirmed over and over, along with endorphin rushes and bonding experiences that the s-type feels, that's the person who develops the greater emotional attachment. The D/M type doesn't necessarily experience those same things because they are the inflicter, rather than the receiver. Something like that old trust building exercise where two people stand with one having their back to the other, the person in front closes their eyes, and leans back for the other person to catch them before they fall to the floor. For the person being caught, it develops trust, an emotional bond when the fear of falling isn't realized, and the processing that the mind and body does. For the person catching, it's nothing like that. Sure, thank you for trusting Me enough not to drop you on the floor. The same thing isn't necessarily built on both sides, even though both people participated in the exercise.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 1:18:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Personally, I tend to think the "in love" thing has shifted quite a bit over the last 10-15 years...


You noticed that too? I thought it was just me.



LadyPact -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 4:38:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
You noticed that too? I thought it was just me.

No, it's not just you. In fact, this was one of the topics/seminars that MP and I attended during one of the years that just it was just the two of us attending SELF. (That would make it either 2010 or 2011 but I was unable to find the past program/schedule on the website.) I can not remember who gave the class, either, which is a real shame.

During the discussion, the presenter did one of those poll the audience deals. Hands raised when those would agree with the statement that they were "in love" with their s-types. The opposite vote for those who would not say they were "in love". (I was in this latter category.) This followed by what those not in love felt what their dynamic was based on.

A part of the topic was on the 'why' of the change in it. Some of it was the changes that have happened regarding people being a member of a house for training in the leather lifestyle. (Back when the 'everybody starts as an s-type in order to be an M-type' someday was more prevalent.) Another was that, for a significant amount of time, many M-types believed that romantic love was a barrier to proper discipline and as more people were moving away from punishment dynamics, that was phasing out. Even the attitude that existed for a while that an M-type who was in love with his slave made him less strict or weak.

It was a pretty good talk about how all of these things have evolved. I tried to find one of My older posts that discussed it before so I could remember more of it but I didn't do well in the keyword search.




MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/20/2014 8:41:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Another was that, for a significant amount of time, many M-types believed that romantic love was a barrier to proper discipline and as more people were moving away from punishment dynamics, that was phasing out.


I personally do hold that while love and discipline go easily together, equally requited love and slavery, in my mind, seem rather slippery creatures to possess at once, if one aims to fulfill both terms with literal accuracy, that is.



KnightofMists -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 6:21:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

..... I know of a few that have lasted between 2 and 5 years...which I view as long term. .....


Mmmmm I don't see long term as anything less than seven years. Something about that seven year itch I suppose.



slavekate80 -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 6:32:56 AM)

It's been my experience that whenever a Dom falls in love with me, it does mess up the dynamic. He starts doing romantic things that don't make sense to me (no matter how much I like my laptop or my vacuum cleaner, I'm not going to buy it flowers) and the discipline and punishment aspects weaken. I become unsure where I stand because he's not harsh and swift with correction anymore, and the relationship doesn't last long after that. The purpose of taking care of me is so that I can serve better. Obviously if I'm well-fed and well-rested, and not severely injured, I can do more work and that work is higher quality, I'll heal faster, and I'll look better. It has nothing to do with him providing because he cares about me, and everything to do with him providing because I am a living thing and have certain physical needs or else the quality and quantity of my service will suffer and he'll get less out of me no matter how hard I try.

Relationships based on mutual benefit can be more stable than those based on love, IMO. You can fall out of love, but you'll never stop needing food and shelter or stop benefiting from having a willing servant.



chatterbox24 -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 7:06:07 AM)

I am only inspired by love in the long term. Lust for the short term. If that isn't present, it becomes like an unpleasant job, that I resent. Whether it be for service or sex. I am probably gonna tell ya to do it yourself, either by saying get it yourself, or handing you the lube. Some of us have to have love incorporated into the relationship.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 10:34:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekate80

It's been my experience that whenever a Dom falls in love with me, it does mess up the dynamic. He starts doing romantic things that don't make sense to me (no matter how much I like my laptop or my vacuum cleaner, I'm not going to buy it flowers) and the discipline and punishment aspects weaken. I become unsure where I stand because he's not harsh and swift with correction anymore, and the relationship doesn't last long after that. The purpose of taking care of me is so that I can serve better. Obviously if I'm well-fed and well-rested, and not severely injured, I can do more work and that work is higher quality, I'll heal faster, and I'll look better. It has nothing to do with him providing because he cares about me, and everything to do with him providing because I am a living thing and have certain physical needs or else the quality and quantity of my service will suffer and he'll get less out of me no matter how hard I try.

Relationships based on mutual benefit can be more stable than those based on love, IMO. You can fall out of love, but you'll never stop needing food and shelter or stop benefiting from having a willing servant.


Thank you, Kate, for articulating that, particularly in reference to the "love thing" making such a massive jump to the front seat over the past years in discussions like these. I feel, as you do, that true blue love requited from the master inevitably curtails his edge in some way and alters the dynamic. When I weigh the two elements and attempt to combine them, either through experience or intellectual exercise, I arrive upon an impasse and I do not know how to proceed without getting "creative" with the respective roles.

I'm often told how wrong I am on that point by people who assure me the two elements can coexist harmoniously, but when exploring their perceptions and understandings, or observing them in the flesh, I'll admit that I've remained unconvinced about their intellectual honesty. They inevitably seem to be talking about D/s or even some combination of BDSM, but not master and slave. If anyone here feels they do have equally reciprocated love and a serious master and slave relationship—truly—wrapped up all in one and running at the same time with the same person, I'd love to hear their views on that and how it works in their minds. This isn't an invitation to argue or set you up for insult, but explore, and while I realize the opening post is tossing the dart loosely by discussing "D/s lifestlyes" and not necessarily master and slave, I feel it's a good outgrowth discussion, nonetheless.



FieryOpal -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 1:56:52 PM)

[Bolding mine] THIS...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

My kink partner HAS to be my love partner.


Everybody's input has been informative, but OP's original inquiry stands as such regarding long-term D/s couples staying together as a couple, not BDSM play partners or looser (non-couple) M/s constructs of limited duration:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman

Is love a necessary part of a long term D/s relationship or is the craving to dominate or be dominated enough to keep a couple a couple?

If I may ask, MarcEsadrian and also slavekate80, how long on average do your M/s relationships last? You may have entered them with no set time limit or intended for them to be longer term than they were, or is that usually left up in the air?

One more question for either of you: In your M/s relationships, do you consider yourselves a "couple" in the traditional sense of being one another's companions mapping out a future together or is it more accurate to describe as que sera sera?

ETA: Btw, I don't do a punishment dynamic, and it just occurred to me whether having foundational punishment and/or humiliation dynamics, or the lack of purely funishment dynamics, has any relevancy here.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 4:20:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
If I may ask, MarcEsadrian and also slavekate80, how long on average do your M/s relationships last? You may have entered them with no set time limit or intended for them to be longer term than they were, or is that usually left up in the air?


They vary quite a bit, as human relationships do. My first lasted a little under 8 years, my second was roughly 3 years, my fourth (still ongoing) around 4 years, and my fifth (latest and ongoing, too) about 1.5 years. Interspersed around and in between these relationships have been other starts and stops due more to incompatibility or lack of serious interest. I also lived on the opposite end of the dynamic for roughly 3 (?) years. Anyway, I tend to suck at calculating years spent in relationships, but these are fairly accurate numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
One more question for either of you: In your M/s relationships, do you consider yourselves a "couple" in the traditional sense of being one another's companions mapping out a future together or is it more accurate to describe as que sera sera?


I avoid the words couple and partner, as they lend inferences of traditional romance. It’s not that the words cannot be detached from those meanings, but from a linguistic point of view, some words tend to encode cultural/cognitive meanings that affect communication more than others. I'll further add that I see such terms tossed around all the time and I think it tends to confuse and mislead a lot of newcomers into thinking love and M/s go hand-in-hand.

I consider an M/s relationship, overall, as a symbiosis between two passionate and complementary psychologies. Yeah, that probably sounds “cold,” but seeing things in this way doesn’t keep me from mapping out the future with my slave to the positive, or anything else, for that matter. I can still have her head in my lap. I can still take her out for interesting dinner conversation, or share cotton candy at a fair. I can also leave her at home to scrub the bathroom floors while I have another on my shoulder for the night, or whip her for not following protocol. The point I’m attempting to make here is that there can be plenty of intimacy and closeness I have with a slave, but there are certain brightly lit boundaries we both appreciate as necessary and good for the structure of the symbiosis to thrive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Btw, I don't do a punishment dynamic, and it just occurred to me whether having foundational punishment and/or humiliation dynamics, or the lack of purely funishment dynamics, has any relevancy here.


I suppose that depends upon what you mean by “punishment dynamic.” Again, we could be taking a stroll along the boardwalk of BDSM’s relative and confusing linguism there. I've found it's always smart to ask how people are employing words in this circle. But in terms of master and slave, I’m not certain how you’d get around the matter of coercion, punishment, or discipline—or at least the recognized right of the master to invoke these sans kid gloves to enforce his will—and still call your relationship M/s with a straight face at the end of the day.




FieryOpal -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 5:16:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
<snip>
I suppose that depends upon what you mean by “punishment dynamic.”...


Corporal punishment as opposed to discipline is how I meant it. Now, you may consider it all falling into the realm of discipline and training with your slave(s). I don't have slaves but I do have a hybrid system where my submissive has me as a Mistress, and since we are romantically intimate, I wanted to differentiate between punishment and funishment.

Regarding length of relationships, I'm assuming you meant those without love, unless you were referring to both with and without. I apologize for not specifying this at the onset. [:)]



LadyPact -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 6:35:04 PM)

Love or not love is not the same as punishment and funishement.

Just sayin'.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Love part of the D/s life style? (2/21/2014 9:11:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Regarding length of relationships, I'm assuming you meant those without love, unless you were referring to both with and without. I apologize for not specifying this at the onset.


Oh yes, each and every one of the relationships mentioned were without the full broadband experience of requited love. The relationship lasting a little under 8 years did involve love toward the end, actually—which was part of the reason the relationship ended, if that's not too ironic. Long story short, I had to let her go because it was what was best for her. I couldn't force her on the path I wanted any longer. I won't go into details about it, but there was something very important she wanted in life and I just felt bad keeping her from it. I'll put it simply that it wasn't somewhere I could go with her.

The conversation we had leading up to my decision to go our separate ways was heartbreaking, really. After being with me for so long, she was rather stuck, and yet, simultaneously, quietly miserable about what she was being held back from. It was one of the hardest decisions to make in my life, not for care of my part or what I wanted, but out of empathy for her. And that is what love brings in resonating abundance: the ultimate form of compassion and empathy for another human being...the willingness to rip out your heart for that person to make them happy, healthy, and not in pain, not because you can't tell where the lines between you and them end or begin, as it's often claimed, but because you care for them as separate entities beyond your own involvement and interests. When I care that much for someone, it's impossible to keep them as slaves and think of them as slaves. And again, that's not because there isn't affection that I might share with a slave, but the intimacy and structure is different.



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