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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

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ORIGINAL: slavekate80

It's been my experience that whenever a Dom falls in love with me, it does mess up the dynamic. He starts doing romantic things that don't make sense to me (no matter how much I like my laptop or my vacuum cleaner, I'm not going to buy it flowers) and the discipline and punishment aspects weaken. I become unsure where I stand because he's not harsh and swift with correction anymore, and the relationship doesn't last long after that. The purpose of taking care of me is so that I can serve better. Obviously if I'm well-fed and well-rested, and not severely injured, I can do more work and that work is higher quality, I'll heal faster, and I'll look better. It has nothing to do with him providing because he cares about me, and everything to do with him providing because I am a living thing and have certain physical needs or else the quality and quantity of my service will suffer and he'll get less out of me no matter how hard I try.

Relationships based on mutual benefit can be more stable than those based on love, IMO. You can fall out of love, but you'll never stop needing food and shelter or stop benefiting from having a willing servant.

Thank you, Kate, for articulating that, particularly in reference to the "love thing" making such a massive jump to the front seat over the past years in discussions like these. I feel, as you do, that true blue love requited from the master inevitably curtails his edge in some way and alters the dynamic. When I weigh the two elements and attempt to combine them, either through experience or intellectual exercise, I arrive upon an impasse and I do not know how to proceed without getting "creative" with the respective roles.

I'm often told how wrong I am on that point by people who assure me the two elements can coexist harmoniously, but when exploring their perceptions and understandings, or observing them in the flesh, I'll admit that I've remained unconvinced about their intellectual honesty. They inevitably seem to be talking about D/s or even some combination of BDSM, but not master and slave. If anyone here feels they do have equally reciprocated love and a serious master and slave relationship—truly—wrapped up all in one and running at the same time with the same person, I'd love to hear their views on that and how it works in their minds. This isn't an invitation to argue or set you up for insult, but explore, and while I realize the opening post is tossing the dart loosely by discussing "D/s lifestlyes" and not necessarily master and slave, I feel it's a good outgrowth discussion, nonetheless.

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
To each his own. If you want to indulge in debauchery and be nothing more than a THING, so be it. Not everyone is seeking the same and in no way are you on some sort of higher plane of enlightenment (LOL) for seeking nothing more than to be treated as an object or to seek someone willing to indulge in such fantasies/fetishes. Seriously, give me a break, LOL.

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
To each his own.

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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Oh yes, each and every one of the relationships mentioned were without the full broadband experience of requited love. The relationship lasting a little under 8 years did involve love toward the end, actually—which was part of the reason the relationship ended, if that's not too ironic. Long story short, I had to let her go because it was what was best for her. I couldn't force her on the path I wanted any longer. I won't go into details about it, but there was something very important she wanted in life and I just felt bad keeping her from it. I'll put it simply that it wasn't somewhere I could go with her.
<snip>
When I care that much for someone, it's impossible to keep them as slaves and think of them as slaves....

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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
To each his own.

Are you sure you're talking straight there? As Lady Pact astutely pointed out, your double standards are showing.

And for the record, my slaves have personalities, along with hobbies and personal interests. They can reason and carry on in-depth conversations. They can dream and love and want like anyone else. So with that in mind, what in the world are you getting at?

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
To each his own. If you want to indulge in debauchery and be nothing more than a THING, so be it. Not everyone is seeking the same and in no way are you on some sort of higher plane of enlightenment (LOL) for seeking nothing more than to be treated as an object or to seek someone willing to indulge in such fantasies/fetishes. Seriously, give me a break, LOL.

Fair enough, but it would be My opinion that it goes both ways. Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely dripping in one true wayism with some of the "in love" crowd looking for every excuse not to accept the legitimacy of any dynamic that doesn't include a romantic element. That's been everything from people saying that unless it's a decade it's inconsequential or somehow, if the romantic love element is not involved, it's just fun and games.

How about we all attempt to hold ourselves to the same standards on this thread? If "long term" only means ten years or more, then so be it. You'll be excluding a lot of relationships that exist out there, lots of marriages, dynamics on which a number of respected BDSM authors have discussed, but whatever floats your boat. Just please hold yourselves to the same level while other people's dynamics are being judged so harshly because they wouldn't fit somebody's personal style.

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

~ fast reply about current topic ~

It's an extremely common complaint by sub women that "since Master told me he loved me he doesn't beat me anymore. How can I get him to love me but be less vanilla at the same time?" Just on these boards, there have been OP's posing that question for years.

The goal of having a dominant who loves me as my life partner is historically new, and a result of the heteroization of the scene. Old Guard clubs assumed relationships would be temporary, because -- I theorize -- it was so rare to have long-term man-man relationships in a time when homosexuality was so oppressed. Maybe things would have been different if gay marriage had been legal in the US in 1945. Maybe lifelong twue wuv would have been considered part of M/s much earlier. But, as it is, the people who want to mix their M/s with romantic love are the new agey ones. And love has destroyed plenty of D/s relationships, not just the one MarcEsadrian described. Perhaps love has been the foundation of many more, I don't know the numbers.

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Are you sure you got the right Domina because I have NEVER stated love is a NECESSARY factor for D/s. In fact I have had dozens and dozens of playmates over the years. COLLARING a sub is the pinnacle and YES, I loved them all, not in a romantic sense but for what they brought into my life. It's not like I expect everyone to dom the same way I do. In fact I was NEVER the same Dom for any sub.

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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Your openness is appreciated. I really wasn't trying to pry. [sm=flying.gif] Interpersonal relationships can be complex creatures that take on a life of their own organically, and they'll either work out or they won't. I'm an incurable romantic, so I make no claim to objectivity insofar as that's concerned.

I agree with you that this is why I cannot think of my love partner as a slave either. As long as both (or more) parties to a D/s dynamic are on the same page, and have similar attachment styles, that's essentially what matters. Mine gets intense, and I can become attached to people and pets easily, not so much things. Unrequited love is a bitch. (Hasn't happened to me since the days of schoolgirl crushes, but I've lent my shoulder to cry on plenty of times.)

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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Are you sure you got the right Domina because I have NEVER stated love is a NECESSARY factor for D/s. In fact I have had dozens and dozens of playmates over the years. COLLARING a sub is the pinnacle and YES, I loved them all, not in a romantic sense but for what they brought into my life. It's not like I expect everyone to dom the same way I do. In fact I was NEVER the same Dom for any sub.

Let me help you out there. She's calling you on your selective commentary in this thread. You're seeing claims of a "higher plane of enlightenment" in what Kat and I have wrote (sandwiched between obvious mockery), but haven't, as far as I can see, commented on an earlier truism that actually takes the gold for that title, in my mind.

"I find it amusing that those who insist love isn't necessary are all unattached. While those of us in long term relationships know that it is." —Citation

All the while, no claims of higher enlightenment have been made on my part, or Kat's from what I can tell. I specifically suggested we explore this subject without insult or argument, and yet here you are, obviously upset and reading inferences into things that were never intended anywhere but in your own mind.

And if I may, you seem to be conflating doms and subs with master and slaves. The exceptions/delineations on that have already been noted so, again, I wonder to what level you're absorbing and comprehending what you're reading vs. reading into what you're reading.

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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Your openness is appreciated. I really wasn't trying to pry. [sm=flying.gif] Interpersonal relationships can be complex creatures that take on a life of their own organically, and they'll either work out or they won't. I'm an incurable romantic, so I make no claim to objectivity insofar as that's concerned.

I agree with you that this is why I cannot think of my love partner as a slave either. As long as both (or more) parties to a D/s dynamic are on the same page, and have similar attachment styles, that's essentially what matters. Mine gets intense, and I can become attached to people and pets easily, not so much things. Unrequited love is a bitch. (Hasn't happened to me since the days of schoolgirl crushes, but I've lent my shoulder to cry on plenty of times.)

Thanks for this note, Opal. Yeah, unrequited love can sting terribly, but I think it's important to be sober and right with that likely reality when pursuing intellectually honest slavery to another, or if you have designs in keeping a slave. Thanks, also, for the refreshing honesty about juxtaposing a partner you love with what would, for all intents and purposes, be thought of as a slave. It's tough for me to sort out, too. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible, but I haven't been able to run the two "programs" simultaneously in my mind without one corrupting the other. A general affection? That works. But honest, true blue love? Hard to conceive, unless I get into the practice fooling myself. But as you say, things progress organically and sometimes unpredictably. What's true today in a relationship of any sort might not hold a few years down the road.

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Are you sure you got the right Domina because I have NEVER stated love is a NECESSARY factor for D/s. In fact I have had dozens and dozens of playmates over the years. COLLARING a sub is the pinnacle and YES, I loved them all, not in a romantic sense but for what they brought into my life. It's not like I expect everyone to dom the same way I do. In fact I was NEVER the same Dom for any sub.

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

It's an extremely common complaint by sub women that "since Master told me he loved me he doesn't beat me anymore. How can I get him to love me but be less vanilla at the same time?" Just on these boards, there have been OP's posing that question for years.

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But, as it is, the people who want to mix their M/s with romantic love are the new agey ones.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Are you sure you got the right Domina because I have NEVER stated love is a NECESSARY factor for D/s. In fact I have had dozens and dozens of playmates over the years. COLLARING a sub is the pinnacle and YES, I loved them all, not in a romantic sense but for what they brought into my life. It's not like I expect everyone to dom the same way I do. In fact I was NEVER the same Dom for any sub.

Of course I'm sure. You're enjoyable to talk to. LOL.

I'm not counting playmates in any of this, so let's skip that. What I'd like to see is an "all things being equal" standpoint. Whether that be a time frame, a collar, or if a person lived under the same roof. (Though I've noticed a couple of folks on this thread who have changed the bar on time frame to suit their own present situation, but two years ago, they'd have said the bar would be two years less. That's telling.)

Like you, My dynamics have been different. I'll even go so far as to say that "in love" is probably more enjoyable from an emotional sense for Me personally. What I can't do is substantiate some of the foot stomping that's going on during the course of this thread where a couple of the folks of the "in love" crowd have tried to find every possible opportunity to scoff at those who have based dynamics on authority or service in attempts to diminish them. If something doesn't work for someone else, I'm entirely cool with that. At the same time, one must look at what works for other people.

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Thanks LadyPact, and likewise! I agree with you that there is a tenure of judgements that are very unnecessary in regards to how love, any kind of love, be it romantic or merely just a mutual appreciation of each other comes into play in the lifestyle.
I can imagine especially for a D/D couple, it is something more shared between the two of them that they are allowing others to relish rather than a D/s couple like with Anne rice and her husband. There's so many dynamics involved excluding poly play, which I'm hoping to engage in with my own personal sub should the D/s relationship evolve into something long term and where romantic feelings come into play.
Will it diminish my ability to dom him? Impossible. This is who I am, that doesn't at all make sense once put into perspective. If that happens to a Dom, then I'm sorry to say, he might not have really been as Dominant as you thought.
I'm a complete believer in live and let live. I LIKE that there are unique perspectives and experiences with any given individual.
To say with love D/s cannot exist or without is illogical. It really comes down to the people involved and what they mean to each other.
I THRIVE on my sub giving me almost completely selfless submission and age, gender, weight etc...those things are of less importance.
And in my experience, a sub will only be that way if he dreams of having a lifelong Domina who will share if not a perennial friendship, but perhaps a perennial love.
I even have subs I used to just vent to and we'd have ongoing conversations for months because I had to maintain my unflappable demeanor and it worked for me, and it in no way lessened their image of me. They served that purpose and I was grateful.
So can D/s exist without love? YES. Is it for everyone? No.
I'm pretty sure we all know, bdsm means different things for different people at the end of the day. And if love was a necessary factor then why do fin/prodommes exist?
It's all a matter of applied logic, and I very much agree with you LadyPact. Cheers! :D

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
So stop mincing my words because I certainly don’t…

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ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
IF you pay attention to the commentary you are quoting in reference to MY statements, I WAS NOT THE ONE WHO MADE THEM.

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ORIGINAL: Blueswordsman

Experience has thought me. love grows and evolves. D/s with a loving partner is an intense sensual experience. Without love D/s is great but just doesn’t have the same luster. Reading all the opinions convinced me Love does enhance the experience.