Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Obamacare


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Obamacare Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 1:26:40 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, Lucy, HuffnPoo isn't likely to mention it, and with you not being from around here we could hardly expect you to know, but let me educate you just a bit. Someone in this situation once would have had pretty easy access to MediCaid (which is a lot better than what an American is going to get on a Bronze Plan), but that access and eligibility was cut off by... wait for it... the earliest provisions of Obamacare to go into effect.

Pretty drastic cuts to the already existing program which provided full service medical insurance to the neediest Americans went into place well ahead of the other changes of this law you find so cool. This created a stockpile of funding that could be used to hide the real cost of the new law for a while. It meant people would die, of course, but they are just blaming Republicans for that. After all. It's fine for Americans to die horribly, if the left can blame the right.

YAY TEAM!


Yep. Yachtie, Desi, myself and others all told everyone two years ago...."just wait...the cost is going to rise substantially, the deductible's will rise....they have to...it's just simple math...if you extend coverage to every kid until 26, remove the lifetime caps, it's just math. If car dealers are now required to provide free oil changes, tune ups and tires until you let the car go...a car ain't gonna cost 35 grand....it's gonna cost 100 grand or more".

All the democrat types all said "Noooooooo....this is a beautiful thing....it's gonna cost less...Obama said so"

Uh huh.

Math doesn't lie. Politicians do.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 3:27:07 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Well, Lucy, HuffnPoo isn't likely to mention it, and with you not being from around here we could hardly expect you to know, but let me educate you just a bit. Someone in this situation once would have had pretty easy access to MediCaid (which is a lot better than what an American is going to get on a Bronze Plan), but that access and eligibility was cut off by... wait for it... the earliest provisions of Obamacare to go into effect.

Pretty drastic cuts to the already existing program which provided full service medical insurance to the neediest Americans went into place well ahead of the other changes of this law you find so cool. This created a stockpile of funding that could be used to hide the real cost of the new law for a while. It meant people would die, of course, but they are just blaming Republicans for that. After all. It's fine for Americans to die horribly, if the left can blame the right.

YAY TEAM!

Yep. Yachtie, Desi, myself and others all told everyone two years ago...."just wait...the cost is going to rise substantially, the deductible's will rise....they have to...it's just simple math...if you extend coverage to every kid until 26, remove the lifetime caps, it's just math. If car dealers are now required to provide free oil changes, tune ups and tires until you let the car go...a car ain't gonna cost 35 grand....it's gonna cost 100 grand or more".

All the democrat types all said "Noooooooo....this is a beautiful thing....it's gonna cost less...Obama said so"

Uh huh.

Math doesn't lie. Politicians do.


If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America. When someone tells me that the President's plan sucks, I interpret that they have a much better idea that is well supported with documentation on hand. Only an idiot would attack the ACA and not have a better, well developed and strongly defendable under scrutiny of an idea, right?

First you would need to give a detailed analysis of what was going on in the marketplace prior to the ACA being put into law. How the industry was doing. How individual Americans were handling things. And American businesses. After that, a very studied report on what improvements should be made to make the system viable for long term economic growth while helping Americans regardless of their financial status. This document of yours will need to be constitutional, since we'll present it to Congress. I know, you guys will do a great job in showing Americans that conservatives can use creative and innovating ideas that reduce costs from the individual on up to the federal government, while allowing the industry to make a good profit. Part of this plan will need to show how to reduce the number of bankruptcies due to medical bills. An you can not make it a cut/paste job. All work is yours originally. After all, don't you want the honor and thanks of the nation coming to you rather than some other person?

Oh, and you'll have to be able to defend your work from us. Since you have been ripping apart the ACA for three years, its only fair to return the 'favor', right?




(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 4:44:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America. When someone tells me that the President's plan sucks, I interpret that they have a much better idea that is well supported with documentation on hand. Only an idiot would attack the ACA and not have a better, well developed and strongly defendable under scrutiny of an idea, right?

Am I right in saying that the original ACA when it was first presented got an 11,000 page amandement by the repubs before they would approve it?
And since then, something like over a million extra pages in further amandments?
What you have now is nothing like what it should have been.

Detailed Analysis: It's too fucking expensive!
The whole thing is still based on greedy profiteering private insurance companies that are only interested in making mega-bucks, not providing true healthcare.
Answer: Pick any single-payer system that is running from around the world.
You can't go wrong.
Even if it's a complete and utter clusterfuck, it'll be cheaper and better than what you currently have.

Credits: These go to every country that have implemented such a system that benefits everyone in the country regardless of creed, colour, financial status or gender.
No human was harmed in the making of this suggestion.

I would probably guess that during the time it took to post this, 100+ people were cured/fixed and released from medical facilities/hospitals in single payer systems; up to 5 people filed for bankruptcy in the USA for medical bills they cannot pay, and a further 200+ American citizens resigned themselves to further pain because they have no medical insurance and cannot even afford a visit to a GP.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 5:08:48 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America.

Outlaw health insurance.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 6:21:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Actually that isn't true nationwide. Medicaid family care covered famili and gave them full coverage. However, in NJ, medicaid did NOT provide full coverage for all poor people. Poor, often sick single adults got something called "medicaid plan G," and that was far from full coverage. It did not include hospitalization and very few primary care doctors participated and rarely any specialists. It did offer full presription coverage, but if a person had need of a specialist or worse, surgery, they were basically SOL.


I wonder why that could be...

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 6:28:28 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America.

Outlaw health insurance.



Bingo!

Even single-payer is corruptible. Why people see it as a panacea is quite disturbing.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 9:01:50 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
At least people can afford to see a doctor, no matter, how conservative their *leaders* are.


Ps any thing created by man is corruptible. Even bridge closings.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 9:44:04 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Ps any thing created by man is corruptible. Even bridge closings.



And tax audits.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 9:48:22 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Lmao.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 11:33:38 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America. When someone tells me that the President's plan sucks, I interpret that they have a much better idea that is well supported with documentation on hand. Only an idiot would attack the ACA and not have a better, well developed and strongly defendable under scrutiny of an idea, right?

Am I right in saying that the original ACA when it was first presented got an 11,000 page amandement by the repubs before they would approve it?
And since then, something like over a million extra pages in further amandments?
What you have now is nothing like what it should have been.

Detailed Analysis: It's too fucking expensive!
The whole thing is still based on greedy profiteering private insurance companies that are only interested in making mega-bucks, not providing true healthcare.
Answer: Pick any single-payer system that is running from around the world.
You can't go wrong.
Even if it's a complete and utter clusterfuck, it'll be cheaper and better than what you currently have.

Credits: These go to every country that have implemented such a system that benefits everyone in the country regardless of creed, colour, financial status or gender.
No human was harmed in the making of this suggestion.

I would probably guess that during the time it took to post this, 100+ people were cured/fixed and released from medical facilities/hospitals in single payer systems; up to 5 people filed for bankruptcy in the USA for medical bills they cannot pay, and a further 200+ American citizens resigned themselves to further pain because they have no medical insurance and cannot even afford a visit to a GP.


If this is your answer, you got an 'F'. You failed to achieve anything let along a well structured and well defined system for this industry. Your analysis of 'what is wrong with the industry' is so completely non-exisistant you would have been better to just skip the idea of making one. A single payer system? Which one? How is it deployed? How is everything within it defined? How much does it cost? How much does it save all the entities? That is the whole reason of the challenge. What your stating is the task is well above your educational level. I have a college education, and even I would find the question/task daunting to undertake. I'm not trying to bash you here (even if it sounds that way), but to show the concept really is not a simple task to solve. If it was, healthcare would not be a problem on any level (legal, financial, social, logistical, spiritual, or even political).

Most Americans either are 'ok' with the ACA or want it improved upon. Yet most Americans do not know *HOW* to improve upon it. The hidden problem here is things are interconnected. A positive change 'here' could have a negative consequence 'there'. So the question becomes, how can we maximize positive changes while hindering the develop or growth of negative consequences? That is as hard of a question as I proposed in my challenge.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 12:12:01 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Yet most Americans do not know *HOW* to improve upon it.


The only improvment to Shit I know of is a decent shovel.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 4:01:48 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
What's that "single payer" thing they have all over most of the rest of the western world?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 4:05:29 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
banish healthcare!!!!!

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/1/2014 4:17:31 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
Such a silly question. In NJ, medicaid pays practically the lowest to participating doctors. Rarely more than like $25 buck for specialists. I don't blame them for not participating, even thhough it meant a death sentence for many and living in severe pain for others, like me.

My point is that, at least in NJ, the ACA IS helping a large portion of the population it was designed to help. I know that it is very beneficial for me.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 12:27:53 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Lmao.



Yes, I'm sure you are. Until it is suggested that a Republican President is doing exactly the same thing with the IRS, and then you'll be screaming your head off instead.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 2:46:31 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I don't blame them for not participating, even though it meant a death sentence for many and living in severe pain for others...

You're an attorney, if I recall. Is this what ethics amounts to among attorneys and doctors today?

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick... ~Hippocratic Oath

But if they can't pay me the fee I desire, then fuck'em, eh?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/2/2014 2:53:23 AM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 8:19:10 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
banish healthcare!!!!!

Hey Lucy, I just want to ask if we agree that healthcare and health insurance are two entirely different things?

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 8:28:22 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Given all of the extraordinary arguments that you rightists were using about why the ACA shouldn't include a single payer provision, I rather doubt that you could make a very convincing case that you believe in keeping the two things separate. Without a single payer set up to fund it, you're stuck with health insurers abusing healthcare and its users.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 9:06:18 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If the ACA is 'shit' as you state it, then perhaps each of you can supply me with your complete and detailed plan for a better healthcare system in America. When someone tells me that the President's plan sucks, I interpret that they have a much better idea that is well supported with documentation on hand. Only an idiot would attack the ACA and not have a better, well developed and strongly defendable under scrutiny of an idea, right?

Am I right in saying that the original ACA when it was first presented got an 11,000 page amandement by the repubs before they would approve it?
And since then, something like over a million extra pages in further amandments?
What you have now is nothing like what it should have been.

Detailed Analysis: It's too fucking expensive!
The whole thing is still based on greedy profiteering private insurance companies that are only interested in making mega-bucks, not providing true healthcare.
Answer: Pick any single-payer system that is running from around the world.
You can't go wrong.
Even if it's a complete and utter clusterfuck, it'll be cheaper and better than what you currently have.

Credits: These go to every country that have implemented such a system that benefits everyone in the country regardless of creed, colour, financial status or gender.
No human was harmed in the making of this suggestion.

I would probably guess that during the time it took to post this, 100+ people were cured/fixed and released from medical facilities/hospitals in single payer systems; up to 5 people filed for bankruptcy in the USA for medical bills they cannot pay, and a further 200+ American citizens resigned themselves to further pain because they have no medical insurance and cannot even afford a visit to a GP.


If this is your answer, you got an 'F'.

Really?
Maybe your misunderstanding of my answer means you are not qualified to mark it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You failed to achieve anything let along a well structured and well defined system for this industry. Your analysis of 'what is wrong with the industry' is so completely non-exisistant you would have been better to just skip the idea of making one. 

It's not an industry - it's healthcare.
And that is precisely why it should never be a profit-making industry.
Which is also why you can't see the solution - you, like several others on here, can only see "industry" and profits, not true healthcare without profits and fat cats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
A single payer system? Which one? How is it deployed? How is everything within it defined? How much does it cost? How much does it save all the entities? That is the whole reason of the challenge. 

There are several single-payer systems running around the western world.
All are different, run differently, structured differently.
The only thing they have in common is.... they are all funded (in the most part) by the taxation system that every working person pays into and are distinctly separate entities from a private heath insurance scheme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
What your stating is the task is well above your educational level. I have a college education, and even I would find the question/task daunting to undertake. I'm not trying to bash you here (even if it sounds that way), but to show the concept really is not a simple task to solve. If it was, healthcare would not be a problem on any level (legal, financial, social, logistical, spiritual, or even political).

It is only inconceivable by those in the USA that have never experienced the wonders of any single payer system.
Americans can only envisage the greedy profiteering insurance system they have to live with.
The American people can pick any of the single payer systems that are used throughout a lot of western countries - even make a hybrid version of several.
Whatever one you pick, it's a ready-made working model that you can modify.
Whatever you do with it, it's going to be cheaper and shit-loads better than what you have now.

As for being 'above my educational level' is a joke.
For one, you don't know my education level; and for another, it is clearly identifiable to a reasonably educated 12-year old brought up in a single-payer system.
It's actually a discussion subject in our 8th-grade school classes because its considered an easy thing to discuss and arrive at sensible answers to.
The only people who can't see it are the American people and American law/policy makers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Most Americans either are 'ok' with the ACA or want it improved upon. Yet most Americans do not know *HOW* to improve upon it. The hidden problem here is things are interconnected. A positive change 'here' could have a negative consequence 'there'. So the question becomes, how can we maximize positive changes while hindering the develop or growth of negative consequences? That is as hard of a question as I proposed in my challenge.

It's not a challenge at all.
For those of us using a single-payer system, it's a very simple no-brainer that most Americans can't visualize the concept of.
It's called.... scrap the healthcare insurance completely - make it optional. Yeah... real radical, I know.
Then, slap 10% on every wage/salary being paid to workers earning more than $10k.
Use that extra tax money, with any other money needed from the tax pot to pay for general healthcare.
No exclusions whatsoever.
Tell big pharma to take a hike. No more big profits.
Negotiate supplies costs from a national budget like you do with the military - no more mega-profits for suppliers.
Pay GP's, hospital staff and consultants a much lower fixed salary.
Cap the awards for lawsuits to sensible figures.

Thats what single-payer systems work like - and that is why they work, for everyone.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Oba... - 2/2/2014 1:53:45 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
Sadly, yes, "ethics" tend to get tied in with how much they get paid. Not for all, but for many.

I had an eye infection last year. Went to the ER (it was really bad). The ophimologist on call didn't take medicaid. However, it was possible for him to bill medicaid without becoming a provider. He did do that and took care of my infection. I was very grateful to him for that, especially as it turns out he is one of the best in my area. I asked him why he did that. He told me that he felt it was his duty, having been the on call doctor to make sure I received the necessary care.

If only ore thought like him...

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Millions Are Now Realizing They're Too Poor For Obamacare Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109