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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 2:34:42 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Well considering he claims he's been seeking this for over two decades without luck, I don't think we need worry about anyone getting involved with him.

We already establish that if somebody does, we all have to buy lottery tickets and check if hell has frozen over.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 41

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 2:49:19 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
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This entire saga makes me somewhat sick. People masquerading as BDSM for exploitation just... Yeah

The basis of BDSM is to get EACH people's needs met. If that's not the primary reason behind your D/s, M/s dynamic, then it's not BDSM. It's exploitation. And say the slave knows the 'master' isn't interested in their welfare as the point of the relationship, and still wants that? Maybe that's even exactly what they want? That's irrelevant. It's the person in control's responsibility to know it's wrong, and stop. If they don't, I view that as criminal.

In many areas of this stuff, there are fine lines between great kink and criminal activity. What is that line? Care for the participants' needs, first and foremost.

Or is this just me?

< Message edited by pg4g -- 2/14/2014 2:50:32 AM >

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 42

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 2:55:08 AM

LadyConstanze

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You would be surprised how many guys write and want exactly that? A dominant who treats them like dirt, isn't interested in their welfare, exploits them...

Mind you I guess 99% of them consider it a pretty hot thing when they're horny, they're own little masturbation fantasy, I guess if they'd have a week or a month of that IRL most of them would figure out that it's just not that hot ;)

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 43

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 3:20:01 AM

FieryOpal

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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
<snip>
In many areas of this stuff, there are fine lines between great kink and criminal activity. What is that line? Care for the participants' needs, first and foremost.

Or is this just me?

I majorly agree with that. Where do you draw the line? Not much of a problem reaching a consensus on sexual activities between two consenting adults, that which falls into the erotic realm.

There seem to be two camps which lie outside of acceptable BDSM practices, acceptable being defined as SAFE, SANE and CONSENSUAL. One camp is comprised of the disturbed, bordering on psychopathic, hunting for prey within BDSM circles. Another camp wants to call anything and everything a "kink" and get a free pass no matter what. I had somebody challenge me on that the other day, as to nobody requiring or needing a free pass to do what they want to do. Isn't that called sociopathic behavior?

Coming out of the mouths of a few CM posters, adultery is now a kink. (Did you know that?) No it's not. Being married and seeking married play partners is a freaking strategy to cheat on your spouse. When did being low-down, sneaky, lying and NOT HAVING THE INFORMED CONSENT OF YOUR SPOUSE suddenly become CONSENSUAL to all adult parties concerned? This is not personal either because I've never had a partner be unfaithful to me (that I'm aware of, and I can sniff that out in a nano-second.)

Exploitation is exploitation, plain and simple. Using undue influence as a Dominant to disrespect, disregard, or coerce consent in breaking the s-type's Hard Limits, while not illegal, is morally and ethically criminal. So no, you're not the only one who shares your opinion.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 44

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 3:48:33 AM

LadyConstanze

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Actually I always thought SSC is a bit redundant and a misnomer, crossing the street is not safe, how can BDSM be safe? As for sane, some people might think what we do is everything but sane.... I much prefer RACK, both sides are risk aware and enjoy some consensual kink...

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 45

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:00:51 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You would be surprised how many guys write and want exactly that? A dominant who treats them like dirt, isn't interested in their welfare, exploits them...

Mind you I guess 99% of them consider it a pretty hot thing when they're horny, they're own little masturbation fantasy, I guess if they'd have a week or a month of that IRL most of them would figure out that it's just not that hot ;)

Of course for many its all well and good as fantasy.

But there is a line between fantasy and reality. That line is consent, and intent. If your intent is to live out your fantasy for both party's needs, but cover it with consent and true focus on the each and every human's needs (including those affected second-hand, like partners!) then hey, go live out your dreams. Good for you.

But if you plan to live out your dreams of capture, slavery, exploitation, rape, or using a person and not giving a damn about them, you can't claim "hey, informed consent! So it's kink!" No, it's not. It's capture, slavery, exploitation, rape and using a person. Full stop. It. Is. Criminal.

The line between your fantasy and decent reality is that the fantasy stops when it's not in everyone's best interests and the measure of that must be done first and foremost. The only way that can happen is when you place each peoples interests before the living out of your fantasies and needs. And that requires you to care about their needs, first and foremost, or you really are imprisoning, deluding, brainwashing, exploiting, raping, torturing, and you deserve to be locked away for your crime.

People. Come. First.

< Message edited by pg4g -- 2/14/2014 4:17:19 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 46

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:07:29 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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I think you are barking up the wrong tree here, I never suggested that those things are OK, I just mentioned that as a woman, you tend to get a lot of emails where guys are asking you to do all and give their consent, because that particular fantasy gets their dicks hard.

What you're doing with your SO is your business, but he trusts you enough to not turn around and then scream rape, because if you would (even more if you'd be a woman), he'd be in deep shit.

You can consent to a lot of stuff but often legally that makes no difference.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 47

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:12:46 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here, I never suggested that those things are OK, I just mentioned that as a woman, you tend to get a lot of emails where guys are asking you to do all and give their consent, because that particular fantasy gets their dicks hard.

What you're doing with your SO is your business, but he trusts you enough to not turn around and then scream rape, because if you would (even more if you'd be a woman), he'd be in deep shit.

You can consent to a lot of stuff but often legally that makes no difference.

Oh of course, believe me, I was not meaning to suggest you were saying otherwise. Sorry if I implied that. I was more using that as a jumping off point to further flesh out my argument.

Sorry if I confused you!

And about my partner? Yeah I stripped that out of the post more for clarity and keeping on track. But yeah, he's a great guy.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 48

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:24:29 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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I always thought both (or more) parties that are involved in a relationship carry part of the responsibility, while the sub as a certain risk regarding injuries, the dominant part often runs a very high risk legally, because no matter how much consent the other party gives, if something goes wrong, guess who's going to be prosecuted? That's a reason trust is so important, and the old "but I was the submissive, I had to follow orders" doesn't really cut it for me, somebody might be submissive but that doesn't make them stupid (far from it), and that doesn't absolve them from not using their brain, That's why I'm not down with SSC and think RACK is much more appropriate, no matter how good and how careful you are, claiming BDSM is safe just doesn't seem right, especially not when you're getting into the SM part of it, and that's just the physical side.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 49

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:29:44 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I much prefer RACK, both sides are risk aware and enjoy some consensual kink...

Yeah, I like that one also. But I'm not into sado-masochism, so for a lightweight like me, SSC makes sense. Safe, as in no bodily harm. Sane, as in what's copacetic and not deranged in my opinion. I look at it two-fold: There has to be eroticism, or it has to have therapeutic value, preferably along with eroticism. This is purely subjective, of course.

Consensual is exactly that. Fully informed consent. Consent after-the-fact doesn't count. Presumed consent doesn't count in my mind. A scene playing out with non-consensual consent would have been discussed, agreed upon in specific detail, then hinted about in a preliminary manner (in a teasing way) well in advance.

Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement.

Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 50

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:34:13 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

Of course. I agree entirely. The concept of SSA is nice and roses, but safety is never absolute.

Everyone keeping risks manageable, keeping informed consent, and keeping everyone's best interests at heart makes for great kink, great fun, needs explored, and happy people.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 51

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:35:07 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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I'm always worried about SSC because I think it gives some people (especially newbies) a false sense of security, you where they don't really feel responsible for their own safety and just assume because the dominant says SSC, that they are. A bit of a pet peeve of mine ;) Maybe I've seen too many "experienced" players doing things that were plainly unsafe (and I'm not even talking about edgeplay, just idiots who have no idea what they are doing, no aim, no clue about sanitizing tools)

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 52

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:41:27 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement. Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

I liked the idea of being captured at times. Took me my first 2 hours of basic army training to realize "when you don't have true freedom, life really is awful" as I started to work out I'd just signed a dotted line that made people my LEGAL superiors to dispense orders. When you know it's real and you can't walk away? That really does muck with your head. I can only imagine what being someone's real slave would be like. That ability to walk away is everything.

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 53

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:44:45 AM

AlexisANew

Posts: 103
Joined: 2/10/2014
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In my book, everything is fine so long as its consensual. If a submissive enjoys doing the donkey work, pulling in the household income and handing the lot over to the dominant, then who are we to say something not right about that? If someone wants to be treated like dirt, that's their kink and the dominant that wants to treat them like dirt is likely getting off on that too.

The majority of us have grown up personalities. We know the difference between dominance and coercion. When someone sets out to exploit another and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all exploitation is bad, I'm talking underhand manipulation to gain money, that person will be on the look out for weaker personalities. Some people know how to home in on the vulnerable, the scarred and co-dependant. Its a game to the predator and I'm certain that many predators would see the world of Master/slavery as one giant playground.

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 54

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:48:43 AM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Maybe I've seen too many "experienced" players doing things that were plainly unsafe (and I'm not even talking about edgeplay, just idiots who have no idea what they are doing, no aim, no clue about sanitizing tools)

You're telling me....

Then there are the idiot males, vanilla ones mostly, who believe what they see in pornos and don't have a clue that it's unsanitary and potentially infectious to go from anal to vaginal. Anything having to do with anal should always be very last on the list, contact-wise.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 55

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:52:07 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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Common sense seems to be the least common of all senses, especially when horniness is involved...

I had a guy who wanted a harsh whipping, claimed to be very experienced and he can take it, argued against a warm up, I gave him one anyway, he whimped out when I was still barehanded spanking him, turned out he watched a lot of OWK videos and it didn't look quite as painful (that was his experience), oh how we laughed...

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 56

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:52:22 AM

AlexisANew

Posts: 103
Joined: 2/10/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement. Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

That's why its better for this sort of guy to go and pay a pro Domme for an afternoon session. I think that desire is very real to them. Like many fantasies, some border on the impossible but it makes the fantasy no less valid. The problem is, its all about them, its a hugely selfish fantasy because what Domme wants her slave locked in a cage 24/7?!?

(in reply to FieryOpal)

Post #: 57

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 4:54:15 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexisANew

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement. Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

That's why its better for this sort of guy to go and pay a pro Domme for an afternoon session. I think that desire is very real to them. Like many fantasies, some border on the impossible but it makes the fantasy no less valid. The problem is, its all about them, its a hugely selfish fantasy because what Domme wants her slave locked in a cage 24/7?!?

Or have him block her storage space by living in her basement, then going to work to feed him and all that...

But those guys usually don't want to pay a pro, because they claim it would make it less real, I think they just want their kink scratched for free.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to AlexisANew)

Post #: 58

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 5:29:50 AM

GoddessManko

Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexisANew

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement. Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

That's why its better for this sort of guy to go and pay a pro Domme for an afternoon session. I think that desire is very real to them. Like many fantasies, some border on the impossible but it makes the fantasy no less valid. The problem is, its all about them, its a hugely selfish fantasy because what Domme wants her slave locked in a cage 24/7?!?

I had a sub offer me exactly this not too long ago. He was willing to drive 3 hours to lock himself in a cage at some hotel somewhere locally and have me pick up the key. I should have agreed simply to test out this theory of how long he may last because I'm rather a novice at lengthy caging practices, and it sounds like a fun little experiment to kill time. Then I could declaratively say whether or not this is a realistic feat.
With my own sub, one day, he will allow me to do such a thing, however right now, he has far too many responsibilities to be locked up without access to a phone, computer and even the airport. :)

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to AlexisANew)

Post #: 59

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 6:53:36 AM

TheWillToThrive

Posts: 36
Joined: 3/8/2013
From: Texas
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If someone willingly participates in a relationship that is completely for the gratification of another it is their choice. If they find they do not appreciate being used in that way they can make another choice and dissolve the relationship. They have learned from experience. I'd sooner give them my applause than my tears. It's almost as if they need to be responsible for themselves.

In my opinion, the question of exploitation boils down to how the money is utilized. Controlling the money to create a home, invest in the future of the relationship, and its participants is financial domination. If the money is used without thought to the future and well being of the worker its pure exploitation.

I don't support exploitation of anyone that doesn't desire it. That being said I'm certainly not going to loose sleep over it. The whole you made your bed thing applies here for me. The morality of the situation is irrelevant as long as it's consensual.

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 60

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