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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 7:50:06 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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FR

This has been a very interesting discussion, so I thank all participants. Money always equals power and trust (or lack of it). Which is why I can tell an awful lot about a couple by observing how they use money in their relationship.

I know a couple who has been together for over 40 years who do not have common money and never will. They both contribute to household expenses, but have separate savings and retirement accounts. They are not married and I find it very unlikely that they ever will marry. Yes, they are a couple, but there are limits to their ability to trust one another.

This is how many people (married or not) handle money. It connotes a lack of *total* trust, to me.

Then there are those who pool resources and have common money. Himself and I had common money within a few months of living together. Common money to me connotes a core equality in the relationship as well as a mutual level of trust. Most people in long term relationships have common money.

Some couples have one or the other in charge of the finances, whether married or not. This connotes that the person in charge of the money has more power in the relationship. Which is fine as long as it's consensual and the person in charge is good with money. Many Master/slave dynamics aspire to this sort of division of money.

Although I don't think there's anything wrong with one person being in charge of the finances, that (in my never humble opinion) should never be given over lightly. It took Himself and I years (over 10) to get to this point.

Anyone who expects an s-type to blindly hand over all their finances (and often all their assets) is a predator, at least to me.

I consider those s types who expect to get a free financial ride while contributing nothing to the household aside from sex or kink to be predators as well, although of a very different type.

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 8:15:37 AM

MasterCaneman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Oh, those guys who say they want to stay caged up, hooded & gagged, or locked down in the basement. Delusional wank fodder. Wouldn't last one day or weekend anyway.

I liked the idea of being captured at times. Took me my first 2 hours of basic army training to realize "when you don't have true freedom, life really is awful" as I started to work out I'd just signed a dotted line that made people my LEGAL superiors to dispense orders. When you know it's real and you can't walk away? That really does muck with your head. I can only imagine what being someone's real slave would be like. That ability to walk away is everything.

You know, I thought the same thing at Ft. Sill. No walls or fences, anyone could have (and did) just walk away, pretty much anytime they wanted to. A few did, but the majority stayed. Returning to the subject, I stand by my assertion that the dude's a predator, plain and simple, and is probably in violation of some form of trafficking law, in my opinion.

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Post #: 62

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 8:18:20 AM

LadyConstanze

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Chatte, I don't know, we each have separate and mutual accounts, mutual accounts for all the general stuff, you know mortgage, insurances, food, we put most of our income (which we pay ourselves as we both own the company) into the mutual account, we use the cards for that when one of us goes shopping, fills up the fridge, pays for maintenance, company account for company costs, etc. Separate accounts make it a bit easier to have a bit of privacy, for example if I buy him a present for his bday, I don't want him to see it in the bank statement and if it's from my own private "slush fund", it feels more like I'm giving him a real present and not something we both pay for.

If somebody is happy to have a submissive that's just there for him or her and doesn't mind paying for their upkeep, that's fine, as long as both are happy with it, and the other way round as well.

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Post #: 63

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 8:45:12 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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So you two have 'mostly common money' -- that says you see each other as equals. That you each keep a separate account for discretionary spending is a matter of personal taste, at least to me.

I think most people who have common money also have *some* separate discretionary money, whether they put it in a separate account or not.

That's not at all the same as having your sub work in your business and not paying him a salary since you 'own' him. It sounds to me like you're both equals in the business, do I have that right?

Although I can recall quite a few instances when a female sub worked for her dom and was not paid for it, I can't recall any instances of male subs not being paid. Hmm...perhaps men learn much earlier to value their work.

It also depends on the amount of work done, I do research and such for Himself on occasion.

In any case I think expecting someone to turn over all their money and assets early on in a relationship is delusional.

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Post #: 64

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:02:10 AM

LadyConstanze

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I fully agree with the turning over money and assets as delusional...

One of the guys I did dominate financially (or took control of his finances to sort him out, I haste to add that when he was in the clear and able to buy himself a new BMW, I allowed him to buy me a leather dress, because after a year of being teaching him how to be a responsible adult and budgeting for him, I thought a thank you present is nice) used to help me with stuff that I needed done in the house, putting up shelves, electrical stuff, all that, but in fairness, he spent every weekend with me in the guest room, it was just that on weekends (he lived about 2 hours away from where I lived) he used to go "mad" and book really long sessions in commercial dungeons, it wasn't just the financial ruin, he was also so desensitized to pain, and not every pro domme is as good as reading the signs as we'd like her to be, so he had some pretty horrific injuries. I basically told him that I don't like seeing a friend self-destruct, he can stop it or we can't be friends. So there was no pain for him (hey, and I'm a sadist, that was the really hard part), but we sometimes went to fetish clubs and stuff, we did a hell lot of fun stuff that was inexpensive, like inline skating, biking, swimming in the summer, cooking together, long talks, a bit of mild play. Essentially he was never really "my" sub, more like a maso friend who had slight sub tendencies, but yeah, I did boss him around a bit and made him build me shelves and all that. Actually he even became friends with hubby (who was my bf way back then) and we're all still in touch with each other. He visited last year when I was in the UK and we went out for a meal, by mistake I stepped on his foot and he "ouched" and we had quite a laugh because he said "I'm so vanilla now, even my gf complains that I can be a bit boring!" I'm possibly the last person who'll ever talk somebody out of kink, but in that instance, it was really the best news I could get.
But to answer the taking money question, no, not a penny, I took control, but to take his money, I would have equalled that with theft and betrayal.

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Post #: 65

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:27:51 AM

housebitch

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guys (and girls) this is pretty simple (and was stated earlier by another poster)- If someone is really a "SLAVE" and are OWNED, then they can be made to do whatever the Master (or Mistress) says. Including working for them and their profit. It is the definition of the word "slave"! Ex: slaves were brought here (USA) to work as SLAVES on plantations for their Masters' profit. Simple as that. Do any of you think slaves were brought from Africa to give them a new and scenic destination to live in? Or that the slaves said "Master, you better not be SELLIN' this cotton for your profit!!" LOL

So I think those that "have a problem wiith it" are maybe just simply using the wrong word. You are not talking about a real slave. You are talking about just a kinky submissive lover, etc. And that is all this "discussion" is. Use of the wrong word. And let's face it- most of us aren't really "slaves". Just kinksters. Sexual kinksters with a lot of limits. LOL

And as so many times I see on here people have a "problem" with anything that other people do that doesn't turn THEM PERSONALLY on or that THEY wouldn't do themselves. Its the usual CM hypocrisy of "I like being beaten so its ok...but YOU like being peeed on? Oh, THAT'S weird!! YOU shouldn't do be allowed to that!"

LOL

Look, whatever is done between 2 consenting adult human beings is their business and they should be allowed to do what they want. Simple as that.
Quit judging each other (and each other's kinks!)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 66

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:33:26 AM

ExiledTyrant

Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: housebitch

guys (and girls) this is pretty simple (and was stated earlier by another poster)- If someone is really a "SLAVE" and are OWNED, then they can be made to do whatever the Master (or Mistress) says.

I'm so glad you cleared all that up. These whinny ass bitches around here think they can reserve the right to depart from a relationship that is absolutely destructive to their health and well being. I'm off to make my new profile SirMasterUberDomThatOwnsUrAss, since it has Master in it, all you bitches need to start packing cuz I'm coming to collect ya!

Exiled

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Post #: 67

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:39:26 AM

LadyConstanze

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Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: housebitch

guys (and girls) this is pretty simple (and was stated earlier by another poster)- If someone is really a "SLAVE" and are OWNED, then they can be made to do whatever the Master (or Mistress) says. Including working for them and their profit. It is the definition of the word "slave"! Ex: slaves were brought here (USA) to work as SLAVES on plantations for their Masters' profit. Simple as that. Do any of you think slaves were brought from Africa to give them a new and scenic destination to live in? Or that the slaves said "Master, you better not be SELLIN' this cotton for your profit!!" LOL

Well, don't know where you are, maybe you don't get news or read the papers, but most guys and girls here are aware that real slavery has been abolished for quite a while.

Don't know about you, but somebody who has so little self-respect that he doesn't even care about his future and his well being, you'd have to be a pretty desperate D-type to take somebody like that on, or you simply can't do any better and have to hope that somebody lets you exploit them, because chances are that you're not qualified for any job that doesn't have "Would you like fries with that?" programmed into your speech.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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Post #: 68

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:44:59 AM

MasterCaneman

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I think the whole point of this thread is at what point does it go from being two consenting adults engaged in mutual support practice into a predatory and abusive situation. I can see if a sub/slave works for their Dom/top for free. Nothing unusual there, it happens all the time in conventional domestic situations. The question is, where is that line drawn? When the D-type is deriving much or all of their income from the s-type's labors smacks of a 'pimp-prostitute' situation, irregardless of what manner of services offered or provided. In many US states, there are statutes on the books that prohibit making a woman cross state lines for 'immoral purposes', and it doesn't take much of a stretch to see that being applied to a pro-domme, even if there's no overt sexual contact involved.

If you have an SO who is willing to do this, all well and good, but at some point they are going to look at you profiting from their hard work and the 'fantasy' is going to change to gritty reality. It's bad enough when it happens in a vanilla setting. When you introduce the elements of WIITWD, people in authority and the media are quick to pick up on that, and they tend to paint with a broad brush in situations like that.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

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(in reply to housebitch)

Post #: 69

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 9:46:21 AM

ExiledTyrant

Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

"Would you like fries with that?"

That is so going into my sig line!

Exiled

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Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 70

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 10:10:56 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

FR

This has been a very interesting discussion, so I thank all participants. Money always equals power and trust (or lack of it). Which is why I can tell an awful lot about a couple by observing how they use money in their relationship.

I know a couple who has been together for over 40 years who do not have common money and never will. They both contribute to household expenses, but have separate savings and retirement accounts. They are not married and I find it very unlikely that they ever will marry. Yes, they are a couple, but there are limits to their ability to trust one another.

This is how many people (married or not) handle money. It connotes a lack of *total* trust, to me.

well.. there can be other reasons to not have one in charge of the money or to pool the money.. someone like me would rather see managing their own money as a challenge to see how much their money can make and have a feeling of independence, a feeling of accomplishment (from reaching their goal or making X% return, doubling their investment in X years, etc).. I feel I am the best person to do that..

and every couple at some point separates, either by divorce/splitting up or by death.. if the stronger money manager has taken care of that for years or decades then the weaker money person never gets a chance to learn how to manage money better and to improve in that respect.. which becomes a major problem when the other person dies (or they split up).. the weaker money person has to deal not only with the emotional upheaval but also with having to learn to handle (and earn?) money late in the game.. while it makes sense in one respect that the better money person should handle it, doing so keeps the weaker money person from growing & learning (cuz at some point they will likely have to financially fend for themselves anyway)..

I feel I am a strong money manager but I don't want to be responsible for someone else's money.. I take financial risks, more risks than most people would take themselves.. I don't want to take that $$$ risk with someone I was in a relationship with.. What is the reason most commonly cited in why couples break up? its cuz of money.. imo, each person managing their own money (apart from whatever agreement to pay common living expenses) eliminates or reduces the money issue and conflict..

jmo..

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 11:29:43 AM

DesFIP

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And people like us can't pool assets because we have children. As such we need separate monies and assets to protect our kids. Otherwise whoever died first would have all their assets going to the survivor and then that person's offspring would inherit it all.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 2/14/2014 11:30:15 AM >

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 5:06:31 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh
And how would that be any different if the two of you live together but are unmarried?

Maybe I'm missing something but my obvious answer to this question is "divorce court".

I don't think that applies financially, if unmarried.

OK, I admit to being ill today and therefore more than a bit groggy but man, isn't that exactly what I'm trying to say and exactly why Aries excluded "committed legal relationships" from his query? Once you've got a legally binding contract in play which ties the two finances together then things like "who's earning what money" take on a different context.

Master and I don't have intention of getting married anytime soon, if at all. But we consider ourselves the same as a married couple except for legally. But I still would let him take my paychecks and I would work for him for free if that's what he desired. Like I said, this isn't something we would have gotten into from the get go but after being together for so many years now.

Master and I have talked about one day, probably soon, witin the next couple years, where he will be completely in charge of my money that will be applied to my upkeep and the rest saved. I'm actually kinda looking forward to that day. I hate being responsible for bills and money. If I had my choice I'd have someone else taking care of it all and then giving me what's leftover into an account.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 2/14/2014 5:15:35 PM >

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 5:41:07 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh
And how would that be any different if the two of you live together but are unmarried?

Maybe I'm missing something but my obvious answer to this question is "divorce court".

I don't think that applies financially, if unmarried.

OK, I admit to being ill today and therefore more than a bit groggy but man, isn't that exactly what I'm trying to say and exactly why Aries excluded "committed legal relationships" from his query? Once you've got a legally binding contract in play which ties the two finances together then things like "who's earning what money" take on a different context.

well,.. it also depends on the laws where you reside.. In BC you only have to be living together/common-law for 2 years to have the same rights as someone that actually does get married.. you don't need to have any legally binding contract there... and that would apply to gays as well.. Rev Can considers gays common-law after only 12 months of living together.. So where you live and the laws could cause as much court time as divorce court does.. just sayin'

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Post #: 74

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 6:33:03 PM

littlewonder

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Only 9 states here in the U.S. recognize common law.

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 7:38:12 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Only 9 states here in the U.S. recognize common law.

and I am guessing each of those states has different rules as to when a couple becomes common law and when they aren't.. I never liked any govt deciding that whole common-law thing for me tho.. which is why I would have a lawyer draw up a co-habitation agreement before living with anyone.. or I would maintain my own home and just hang out at his place a lot..

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Post #: 76

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/14/2014 11:13:58 PM

ARIES83

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So I suppose the pertinent question is, "When does it become exploitation?"

Exploitation(Wiki)
The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.

I like that definition, because it begs the question, "What is fair?"

When you "take advantage" of someone, the general theme is that your exchange is not mutually beneficial, or at least there is a significant difference in the amount which you both benefit.

The idea that both parties agree to something is separate from the question, "Is one party being ripped off?"

I do have a very strong sense of what constitutes fair play, just treatment and honourable conduct. And I think most people do.

I can't remember who said it here, but I think it's a good way to judge.
And that's to look at, "Where is the money going?"

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/14/2014 11:15:13 PM >

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RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/15/2014 7:54:22 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

I can't remember who said it here, but I think it's a good way to judge.
And that's to look at, "Where is the money going?"

Yes, when I'm in charge of money, it gets saved. When my ex was, it went to swingers clubs.

(in reply to ARIES83)

Post #: 78

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/15/2014 8:02:10 AM

LadyConstanze

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Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I can't remember who said it here, but I think it's a good way to judge.
And that's to look at, "Where is the money going?"

Yes, when I'm in charge of money, it gets saved. When my ex was, it went to swingers clubs.

Hubby spends his on vintage guitars, I spend most of my private money on pet food and vet bills. We make sure we have a buffer, never know what's going to happen, but we don't have kids we could leave stuff to, so we might as well spend it on stuff we enjoy.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
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Post #: 79

RE: Slavery and Profit... - 2/15/2014 11:01:21 AM

ClassAct2006

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This is a very sensible quote. As someone who paid an awful lot of money out to my ex husband on the divorce I do not want to do that again with another man (and most men have less than I have financially in terms of assets and income so it's a real live issue). Also with a lot of children to keep and whom I want to inherit - I don't see why a second spouse should inherit even though I am very submissive I am not prepared to be ripped off again financially by a divorcing husband or partner.

Perhaps in some relationships it's part of the duty of the dom to refuse to allow the sub to give up work and her means of earning, ensure she can survive financially if he were to die because she has maintained financial competence and that he should be man enough and competent enough to believe he can keep her without rendering her totally economically dependent on him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And people like us can't pool assets because we have children. As such we need separate monies and assets to protect our kids. Otherwise whoever died first would have all their assets going to the survivor and then that person's offspring would inherit it all.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 80

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